EcoRenovator - View Single Post

dcveem3 · 01-18-18, 08:13 AM

Hi all. I'm stuck between a rock and a bright place. Geo vs Solar. Thanks for all of your posts I've been digging through trying to learn about pros/cons of solar. I still have MUCH to learn and seriously, as of 3 weeks ago I wouldn't have even given solar a thought. But I have a "need" and a "want" at my house and I really think solar is the answer to both. Here's my story; I'm 7-8 years away from retirement and just finished remodeling my LAST large house. When we retire, we'll be downsizing big-time!

But for now, I have 4200sq/ft of house in the middle of 30 acres in Central PA. It's a 2 story with plenty of south facing roof. Nice roof's too. Perfect for solar but more on that later. My current HVAC systems are heat pump over propane. I have a 5 ton unit on the first floor. 3 ton unit on the top. The house is as efficient as I could make a scissor trussed roof system. I have 2x6 structure R21 and wrap on all walls. Every crack/hole sealed. I have R48 in every ceiling BUT and here is where scissor trusses lose it, virtually no air space/gap. So, direct sunlight, direct cold transfers much easier to living space without that traditional "attic" type space above the floors...and vice versa of course. I'm not saying I can't do MORE to reduce my footprint...sure I can.

So my "want" is to become even more efficient. I use all propane for the house. I have my outdoor thermostat for the heat pumps set at 40degF because I bulk-buy propane 1,000 gallons at a time ( 2 500's buried I own both) and can typically buy it for $1.05 gallon in the summer. I use about 1300 gallons a year. Which means electricity starts to cost me more than propane right around 40degF. Propane REALLY went up this year. If I were to buy right now, I'd be at $1.60 a gallon. What also has me worried is that there are shortages of propane in the Midwest. So here comes my "need". I need an alternate source of heating should propane not be available...or sky-rocket in cost.

So, summarize--"need" equals reducing footprint/costs. "Want" equals alternate heating/cooling package. My electric bills range $185 to $330 winter to summer. I have tracked 1500kw to 2400kw a month over the last year. I have a pool and a shop that consume a lot of energy. Welders, lathes milling machine...you get the picture. Obviously, 9.5 tons of AC don't help either. 8 tons in the house, 1.5 tons in the shop.

So, I thought about alternate heat...my "need". I really DON'T need alternate cooling. But I do "want" it. Back to "need". I have a chimney. It's ripe and perfect for a stove of some type. Boiler, air/air. Coal, Wood, etc. It's in a walkout basement and I have 2 backhoes and 22 acres of woods. So there is a resource there for emergency backup heat should propane become unavailable or the price gets crazy. But my problem is, those require "work". Which I don't mind but what if the NEXT person I sell the house to does? Remember that downsizing thing in 7-8 years.

This is where my mind starts to wander. Hmmm...outdoor boiler. No mess inside. I can heat the house, shop AND pool. Nice. But what if the NEXT person doesn't want the hassle? What does an outdoor boiler do for my $340 electric bills in the summer? What if it's 10 degrees outside and I'm at the office working late and it's 8pm at night and I don't feel like "banking" the boiler when I get home? Ok, what about an inside boiler? Again, mess/fuss. I'm into this solution, DIY about $9k outside option, $6k inside.

So I'm off to geothermal land. Sink a few wells. I have a reduced heating/cooling costs. And about a 40% reduction in my electric bill to boot. I can buy a simple coal stoker stove and put it in the basement....that would supply enough heat to keep things from freezing if my electric went kaput. I could also run it regardless to take the edge off the temps and make it easier on the geothermal system. This is nice option imho. However, my equipment is less than 5 years old. I sure hate to tear it all out for new. Not a show-stopper, but a consideration. Geo/over propane.

Or I could go solar!! Maybe whack 80% off my electric bill...or all of it. Install that coal stoker in the basement for backup/take the edge off heat source. Not have to worry about changing out my HVAC equipment. Hmmmmm.

So, rundown:
Solar: I'm thinking a 12k system. Costs me $18k DIY? I have a 46' JLG high lift I bought when I built the house. So. Up on the roof they go. Ok. I know it's not that easy but bear with me. I buy a stoker coal stove used, $1.2k. So figure $15k(I'm taking out tax credit) and I have my "wants" and "needs" covered AND a nice package that I think would be a great selling feature to anyone in the future looking for a big house in the woods. And some fun factor in there too doing something I have NO experience in...solar. Oh yeah...another edit. Grid-tied system. I'm not really into the battery options. I have 2 generators that can run the house if I have NO electric. A PTO off my Kubota diesel and a 8500watt gas backup if I need it. My power is tapped off a power line that runs through the north half of my property. Haven't had a flicker in 5 years.

Geothermal. Great option. I would need an "industry standard" of about $28k for equipment and wells. Only $14k for a horizontal loop system since I have a backhoe and can dig those myself. I have some options here that enable me to keep my own equipment...to some degree. So the costs may be cheaper. I can also still install that coal stoker for emergency and take the edge off the coldest days.

These 2 options I consider my only options at this point. For the Geo option, I favor the wells for efficiency and less mess. So I'm out $28k-.30%=So figure $20k less the tax credit?

Solar option I'm at roughly $14 with the tax credit? This option also uses the coal stoker for backup heat and coldest day help. So that's a wash with Geo.

Geez. I just wrote a book. Now my disclaimer. I am an mech eng with a lot of electrical knowledge...probably 50/50 AC/DC. BUT I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF AN EXPERT IN ANYTHING.. I've worked for 32 years in engineering and operations and there is NOTHING worse then working with engineers!! Ok. Maybe accountants run a close second!! Seriously my disclaimer is although I have some knowledge, I am nothing but an amateur when it comes to either of these options. I need to read/learn and get help. So anything I've listed above can be considered given from a source with good credentials...and absolutely NO expertise!!

Add comments as I begin this journey into the abyss. I may come up with nothing. Who knows. But from my years of project management, I think the best place to start is at the beginning. I'm going to check with my electric company and local agencies about solar here in the Harrisburg PA area. See what I'm up against without divulging too much. I also need to check on Geothermal equipment and actual well costs vs horizontal loops. I also need to check my "exposure" to sun at my house? Maybe buy a cheapie solar panel and put it on my roof, hook it up to a battery with a constant load and measure my amp draw per day? That should give me my potential. Yeah I've been to those sites that use google maps to chart your potential. Basing my answer on those sites makes me nervous. I would sooner spend 50 bucks at harbor freight and do my own testing.

I'll report back with my findings. In case you're bored and need another book to read.

Comments, pro/con, name-calling etc etc are welcome. I don't hold grudges or form opinions of people because of comments. Life is too short.

Thanks!
Don

01-18-18, 08:13 AM	#1
dcveem3 Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Posts: 19 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Don's Solar/Geo Ramblings Hi all. I'm stuck between a rock and a bright place. Geo vs Solar. Thanks for all of your posts I've been digging through trying to learn about pros/cons of solar. I still have MUCH to learn and seriously, as of 3 weeks ago I wouldn't have even given solar a thought. But I have a "need" and a "want" at my house and I really think solar is the answer to both. Here's my story; I'm 7-8 years away from retirement and just finished remodeling my LAST large house. When we retire, we'll be downsizing big-time! But for now, I have 4200sq/ft of house in the middle of 30 acres in Central PA. It's a 2 story with plenty of south facing roof. Nice roof's too. Perfect for solar but more on that later. My current HVAC systems are heat pump over propane. I have a 5 ton unit on the first floor. 3 ton unit on the top. The house is as efficient as I could make a scissor trussed roof system. I have 2x6 structure R21 and wrap on all walls. Every crack/hole sealed. I have R48 in every ceiling BUT and here is where scissor trusses lose it, virtually no air space/gap. So, direct sunlight, direct cold transfers much easier to living space without that traditional "attic" type space above the floors...and vice versa of course. I'm not saying I can't do MORE to reduce my footprint...sure I can. So my "want" is to become even more efficient. I use all propane for the house. I have my outdoor thermostat for the heat pumps set at 40degF because I bulk-buy propane 1,000 gallons at a time ( 2 500's buried I own both) and can typically buy it for $1.05 gallon in the summer. I use about 1300 gallons a year. Which means electricity starts to cost me more than propane right around 40degF. Propane REALLY went up this year. If I were to buy right now, I'd be at $1.60 a gallon. What also has me worried is that there are shortages of propane in the Midwest. So here comes my "need". I need an alternate source of heating should propane not be available...or sky-rocket in cost. So, summarize--"need" equals reducing footprint/costs. "Want" equals alternate heating/cooling package. My electric bills range $185 to $330 winter to summer. I have tracked 1500kw to 2400kw a month over the last year. I have a pool and a shop that consume a lot of energy. Welders, lathes milling machine...you get the picture. Obviously, 9.5 tons of AC don't help either. 8 tons in the house, 1.5 tons in the shop. So, I thought about alternate heat...my "need". I really DON'T need alternate cooling. But I do "want" it. Back to "need". I have a chimney. It's ripe and perfect for a stove of some type. Boiler, air/air. Coal, Wood, etc. It's in a walkout basement and I have 2 backhoes and 22 acres of woods. So there is a resource there for emergency backup heat should propane become unavailable or the price gets crazy. But my problem is, those require "work". Which I don't mind but what if the NEXT person I sell the house to does? Remember that downsizing thing in 7-8 years. This is where my mind starts to wander. Hmmm...outdoor boiler. No mess inside. I can heat the house, shop AND pool. Nice. But what if the NEXT person doesn't want the hassle? What does an outdoor boiler do for my $340 electric bills in the summer? What if it's 10 degrees outside and I'm at the office working late and it's 8pm at night and I don't feel like "banking" the boiler when I get home? Ok, what about an inside boiler? Again, mess/fuss. I'm into this solution, DIY about $9k outside option, $6k inside. So I'm off to geothermal land. Sink a few wells. I have a reduced heating/cooling costs. And about a 40% reduction in my electric bill to boot. I can buy a simple coal stoker stove and put it in the basement....that would supply enough heat to keep things from freezing if my electric went kaput. I could also run it regardless to take the edge off the temps and make it easier on the geothermal system. This is nice option imho. However, my equipment is less than 5 years old. I sure hate to tear it all out for new. Not a show-stopper, but a consideration. Geo/over propane. Or I could go solar!! Maybe whack 80% off my electric bill...or all of it. Install that coal stoker in the basement for backup/take the edge off heat source. Not have to worry about changing out my HVAC equipment. Hmmmmm. So, rundown: Solar: I'm thinking a 12k system. Costs me $18k DIY? I have a 46' JLG high lift I bought when I built the house. So. Up on the roof they go. Ok. I know it's not that easy but bear with me. I buy a stoker coal stove used, $1.2k. So figure $15k(I'm taking out tax credit) and I have my "wants" and "needs" covered AND a nice package that I think would be a great selling feature to anyone in the future looking for a big house in the woods. And some fun factor in there too doing something I have NO experience in...solar. Oh yeah...another edit. Grid-tied system. I'm not really into the battery options. I have 2 generators that can run the house if I have NO electric. A PTO off my Kubota diesel and a 8500watt gas backup if I need it. My power is tapped off a power line that runs through the north half of my property. Haven't had a flicker in 5 years. Geothermal. Great option. I would need an "industry standard" of about $28k for equipment and wells. Only $14k for a horizontal loop system since I have a backhoe and can dig those myself. I have some options here that enable me to keep my own equipment...to some degree. So the costs may be cheaper. I can also still install that coal stoker for emergency and take the edge off the coldest days. These 2 options I consider my only options at this point. For the Geo option, I favor the wells for efficiency and less mess. So I'm out $28k-.30%=So figure $20k less the tax credit? Solar option I'm at roughly $14 with the tax credit? This option also uses the coal stoker for backup heat and coldest day help. So that's a wash with Geo. Geez. I just wrote a book. Now my disclaimer. I am an mech eng with a lot of electrical knowledge...probably 50/50 AC/DC. BUT I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF AN EXPERT IN ANYTHING.. I've worked for 32 years in engineering and operations and there is NOTHING worse then working with engineers!! Ok. Maybe accountants run a close second!! Seriously my disclaimer is although I have some knowledge, I am nothing but an amateur when it comes to either of these options. I need to read/learn and get help. So anything I've listed above can be considered given from a source with good credentials...and absolutely NO expertise!! Add comments as I begin this journey into the abyss. I may come up with nothing. Who knows. But from my years of project management, I think the best place to start is at the beginning. I'm going to check with my electric company and local agencies about solar here in the Harrisburg PA area. See what I'm up against without divulging too much. I also need to check on Geothermal equipment and actual well costs vs horizontal loops. I also need to check my "exposure" to sun at my house? Maybe buy a cheapie solar panel and put it on my roof, hook it up to a battery with a constant load and measure my amp draw per day? That should give me my potential. Yeah I've been to those sites that use google maps to chart your potential. Basing my answer on those sites makes me nervous. I would sooner spend 50 bucks at harbor freight and do my own testing. I'll report back with my findings. In case you're bored and need another book to read. Comments, pro/con, name-calling etc etc are welcome. I don't hold grudges or form opinions of people because of comments. Life is too short. Thanks! Don