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-   -   Sanyo 24KHS72 AC/HP DIY install project (https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=683)

Xringer 10-03-09 06:29 PM

Sanyo 24KHS72 AC/HP DIY install project
 
I've been reading about this gizmo for about a year now, and I'm impressed.
24KHS72 - Sanyo 24,200 BTU Heat Pump Air Conditioner Kit

I've placed my order and it should be here in a few weeks.
In the mean time, I need to get ready with some tools and education.

I've already picked out the location for the outdoor unit and built the pad.
Moved the water tap down the wall a few feet, leaving a nice hole for the 230VAC power.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/F007.jpg

As you can see from this chart:

Woburn Weather - Massachusetts - Average Temperatures and Rainfall

The mean temperature is only 25 deg F. during our coldest month of the year.
So, if this thing will put out adequate BTUhs of heat when it's 17degs out,
we should be warm as toast this winter. :)
(They say, it will do 70% at Zero degrees F. That's 20,300 BTUh)!
I'm going find out if this is true, if it gets that cold this winter!

I'll post more as I go along.

Cheers,
Rich

Edit: Adding informative charts.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...CL/heatcap.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...L/poweruse.jpg


Here's the 'After' picture.. So you won't have to read all these pages.. :)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/F143.jpg

Flow chart:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../referFlow.jpg

Inside unit:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...indoorunit.jpg

Outdoor unit:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...CL/outdoor.jpg

Xringer 10-03-09 06:49 PM

I found this page a while back.. It has lot of pictures

MINI SPLIT INSTALLATION GUIDE - KINGERSONS.COM

That depict the basic Mini-Split install. This will be used with the Sanyo install manual
to give me a better idea of what this job entails.

Daox 10-03-09 07:12 PM

Very cool! I see the COP is rated at 3.4. Not too shabby.

I have a question about the placement of the unit. Where is it in relation to the house? North side of your house out of the sun? South side for better heating in the winter?

Xringer 10-03-09 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 4274)
Very cool! I see the COP is rated at 3.4. Not too shabby.

I have a question about the placement of the unit. Where is it in relation to the house? North side of your house out of the sun? South side for better heating in the winter?

It's on the east side of the house. But, the garage is about 10 feet away
from the house. So, the compressor unit will be about 8 feet from the garage,
which is blocking most of the early morning sun.
The sun is going to hit the pad between (approx) 9:30 & 11:30 AM.
(9:30 AM, that's about the time old retired guys want to call for heat).. :)

As a side project, I've purchased some 1.25" PVC pipe (40 feet).
The pipe will be used to build a support for a small snow roof for the outdoor unit.
It's job will be to keep snow fall from building up on the 3x4' pad.
Since it's going to be a portable (it will look like a table with a sloped top),
I might be able to use it as a sun shield during the summer cooling months..
However, there are very few summer days around here when we use the AC until afternoon, When the east side is out of the sun.

Xringer 10-03-09 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 4274)
Very cool! I see the COP is rated at 3.4. Not too shabby.

I recall looking at that COP number when I was researching around.
http://www.ci.richland.wa.us/RICHLAN...s%20041009.xls

According to what I've found, the COP is 3.4 when you are running it full bore.

29,000 BTUh, burning 2,490 watts gives you a 3.4 COP.
But, after things have warmed up and the unit is just coasting along at, say,
4,400 BTU, only burning 290 watts, you get a COP of 4.4 :)

Maybe it's good this thing is a tad over-sized.?.

We have added a bunch of insulation in the past year, and I'm really looking
forward to seeing if I can actually heat my home using 290 watts!! LOL!!
At least on the mild days..

AC_Hacker 10-03-09 09:10 PM

Good luck with your new unit.

I bought a 9,000 BTU version (12,000 BTU heating) of the Sanyo last year, to carry me through my GSHP project.

The unit I got has a lower HSPF rating than yours, but still it really works great.

Most of the time, I can't even tell that it's running.

The thermostat is very accurate. You set it for the temperature you want, like 68 for instance, and the house goes to 68 and stays there, no temperature swings like my central air gas furnace did.

Most comfortable heat I've ever had.

Best regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-04-09 08:05 AM

Thanks
 
From what I've been able to glean, Sanyo is one of the better brand names (for ductless).
And, I was able to get very familiar with the Sanyo 24KLS72 AC-only unit that we had installed at work.
It's a super AC and like you said, 'can't even tell that it's running'..

After 30+ years of waking up to the baseboard pipes pinging at night, on our
forced-hot-water-by-oil system, a reduction in noise level is most welcome!

~~~

The 20' line-set that comes with the kit I'm getting might be a bit too long.
I found out that the minimum length is 10', so I'm thinking about cutting
them down to around 13 to 16 feet on install day.

After seeing the very poor job our HVAC guys at work did on the 24KLS72
line-set install, I'm thinking of buying my own Sears flare tool and DIY.
Sears.com

I see the manual refers to a 'special R410A flare tool' and "RIGID",
but there just isn't enough info about which tool I need.
Sears has a bunch of them, but I need some tips on what to look for..

Thanks,
Rich

Edit:
It seems I will need a 37 degree flare kit.?. Summit SUM-900311 - Summit Racing® 37 Degree Flare Tool Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Not too cheap looking. Everything else I found cost way too much.

I saw where one guy converted his 45 deg to a 37 deg in his shop..

AC_Hacker 10-04-09 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4282)
After seeing the very poor job our HVAC guys at work did on the 24KLS72
line-set install, I'm thinking of buying my own Sears flare tool and DIY.
Sears.com

I see the manual refers to a 'special R410A flare tool' and "RIGID",
but there just isn't enough info about which tool I need.
Sears has a bunch of them, but I need some tips on what to look for..

Thanks,
Rich

Rich,

As a disclaimer:

(* I am not a refrigeration technician. If you do the work yourself, you're voiding your warantee. *)

But I did mine myself and it's working just great.

I didn't change my lineset, so you will need to verify that the R-410a flare fitting is not substantially different from other flare fittings. I do think it has a different diameter but you should still be able to use common flare tools.

Will you be doing the entire install yourself?

I installed mine, and I can tell you what I did, if you are interested...

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-04-09 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker (Post 4283)
Rich,

As a disclaimer:

(* I am not a refrigeration technician. If you do the work yourself, you're voiding your warantee. *)

But I did mine myself and it's working just great.

I didn't change my lineset, so you will need to verify that the R-410a flare fitting is not substantially different from other flare fittings. I do think it has a different diameter but you should still be able to use common flare tools.

Will you be doing the entire install yourself?

I installed mine, and I can tell you what I did, if you are interested...

Regards,

-AC_Hacker


I won't be doing the whole install, but I want to do most of it.

This week, I'll be talking to the city inspector to get permission to do my
own 230vac wiring. (I was allowed to wire up the addition we added to our
home about 20 years back, including the 230 outlet).

I would also like to install and test the line-set tubing. Which does not look
very hard to do. I just wonder if I buy the tools (vac pump & R410A gauge set)
will I ever use those tools more than once.. :(

But, since I plan to call in a certified AC guy to release the R410A,
for the warranty sign-off. I'm wondering if I should skip testing the line-set
and just let him do it.?.

YES, I am very interested in every step of your install..
Did you take any pics? :)

Thanks,
Rich

AC_Hacker 10-04-09 08:06 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4284)
I won't be doing the whole install, but I want to do most of it.

I would also like to install and test the line-set tubing. Which does not look
very hard to do. I just wonder if I buy the tools (vac pump & R410A gauge set) will I ever use those tools more than once.. :(

Well, only you can answer that one...

On the other hand, you might get inspired, even empowered, and hack all kinds of stuff.

... 'course, you could sell the stuff on ebay.

BTW, if you're going to test your line set, I think you'd be better with a micron gauge than an R-410a gauge.

What you'd do is to pump a good deep vacuum, like maybe sub-100 microns and see how well it holds over night. If, the next day your vacuum is maybe 90 to 120 microns, you're OK. If it's in the range of 700-2000 microns, you got some 'splaining to do.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4284)
But, since I plan to call in a certified AC guy to release the R410A,
for the warranty sign-off. I'm wondering if I should skip testing the line-set
and just let him do it.?.

Your call...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4284)
YES, I am very interested in every step of your install..
Did you take any pics? :)

No pics... I didn't realize the power of blogs at the time, so I didn't document it... and it's really so easy to do.

So first, while at the freight pick-up place, I visually checked the shipping cartons to see if there was significant damage. There was not any, so I accepted the shipment and signed for it. (It's much easier to reject the shipment at the freight depot)

Second, I got the beast home, and opened the boxed to check for internal damage. Everything checked out ok with the minor exception that there was a very minor crack in the plastic fan cover which I decided I could live with. I also went over the manifest to see that I had received everything I was supposed to receive.

I read all the instructions several times until I was satisfied that I understood everything I needed to do.

You'll need to drill a hole in the wall about 3" in diameter, and some forethought is called for. The indoor unit can have the lines dress in several different directions. I decided that coming straight out the back right side seemed to be the most logical. I had a site planned above a window that would have been quite unobtrusive, but there was a wall stud that prevented the desired placement of the unit. My house is small and old and after much consideration, I found a location that wasn't my first choice, but works well.

There's a metal plate that needs to be mounted it will carry the indoor unit. For condensed water to flow out through the drain tube, the metal plate, and thus the whole indoor unit needs to be leveled properly. I aginize over the mounting, not wanting any rattles when the unit operated, but there is virtually no vibration when the indoor unit is running, so my agonizing was misplaced.

There is a plastic tube through which the refrigerant tubes, the wire which communicates with the outdoor unit and the drain tube run. There's a jumbo plastic nut thingie that cinches it all down. Pretty neat, really.

So you hook up the wires, as per the instruction book, and run the copper lines, the wire and the drain tube out through the wall, and 'hang' the inside unit on the hooks that are part of the sheet metal. I think I got a bit worked up trying to make all this happen as it should, and it wasn't working and I was lifting and trying, and sweat was running out of my arm pits and down my sides, when the whole thing just 'thunked' right into place exactly as it was supposed to. Everything lined up perfectly.

I installed my little electric box outside, near the spot where the electric lines from the unit would most easily dress. My power was 120V because my unit was only 9,000 BTU. I verified my work at the master breaker box and at the box at the heat pump, then powered up just the box and assured that live,neutral and ground were where they belonged. All good.

There is a LRA rating of the compressor. LRA is an abbreviation of Locked Rotor Amps. It refers to the worst case of the compressor when the rotor is frozen and there is power to the the compressor. In this case, the breaker MUST NOT be rated higher than the LRA. The breaker also needs to be high enough to allow normal operation and start-up current peaks. Your instructions will make this simple for you by specifying the proper breaker rating. Don't use this breaker for anything other than you heat pump.

I located the outdoor unit where I wanted it, connected the wires from the heat pump electric box to the heat pump (breaker in "OFF" position, of course). I also hooked up the wires from the indoor unit as per the manual. I used di-electric grease on the terminals and connectors, since it's gonna be outside.

With regards to ester oil on flare fittings, I used some stuff recommended by a local HVAC supply store, for HVAC assembly, they all refer to as 'snot'. I verified that it was compatible with R-410a. I think that ester oil (verify compatibility) would be just fine.

My manual had torque specs for the flare fittings. The manual I downloaded did not have torque specs. I went with the torque specs.

I used flare wrenches where possible but needed to make a special wrench head to use with my torque wrench.

Here's a photo:


It's ugly, but worked very well.

I made sure that I hit the torque specs given in the manual that came with the unit. The amount of force required to hit the specs was more than I had anticipated.

I even let it rest for a few hours and went back to verify I had enough torque, everything was good.

The next stage is the pump down. You should have the proper gauges, including a micron gauge, and do a test pump with your equipment before you start to make sure everything is working well.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Make sure you put NEW VACUUM PUMP OIL in your vacuum pump right before you use it, as it is purposely hygroscopic and can quickly absorb atmospheric water.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So then I hooked up my manifold gauge set (with Bourdon type gauges as you pictured) and my vacuum pump and pumped it down. I didn't have my micron gauge yet so I was flying blind. I let it run for two hours to assure the best vacuum I could get.

At this point, I didn't know how much vacuum I really had because the Bourdon gauges do not read down to the low vacuum levels where you need them to indicate small changes.

Several weeks later, after I got my micron gauge, I did a mock-up of my pump-down setup, using the same equipment (except fo the heat pump) and NEW OIL and ran it again for the same time. I am happy to say that the vacuum I pulled was in the neighborhood of 80 microns, and quite good enough. But that was the first time I really knew that I had done it right. Not a good way to go.

But you really need to know your real vacuum when you are doing the real pump-down.

This should not be a faith-based situation!

So, after I did the pump down, I followed the instructions per the manual, admitted a small amount of R-410a and checked with soap bubbles. Then admitted the full R-410a load, used 'snot' in the valve covers, and tightened them down and tested.

Everything good.

On hindsight, there were procedures where I agonized too much, like the indoor unit wall mounting bracket.

There were also other areas where I should have agonized a bit more, like the pump down.

On the pump-down, I was lucky. If I had the micron gauge when I was doing the pump-down I would have been certain.

Certain is better than lucky.

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-04-09 09:59 PM

Is this gauge any good?

Gauge 2" Vacuum Gauge 0-30"HG (0to -1 BAR) 1/8 NPT - eBay (item 180406066600 end time Oct-09-09 16:45:04 PDT)


Hey, owning a vacuum pump might be useful for other stuff too.
And, like you said, I can always sell it..

I just read the manual for the AC only unit (borrowed from work) and it
said to vacuum down the lines to 10 mmHg abs, shut off the pump,
then release some R410A into the lines (for 10 seconds), shut it off
and then do a soap bubble test on all the fittings..

That seems simple enough. Hey, that's the same as the AC/HP model too!

Did you use Ester Oil on the fittings before torquing them?

AC_Hacker 10-05-09 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4289)

When you pump the unit down, you'll be pulling a vacuum on the lines and the indoor unit. There's a fair amount of volume, and moisture could be there.

The gauge you picture is a bourdon gauge, and its accuracy falls off at the lower end of the gauge. It will tell you that the vacuum pump is working, but it will miss small leaks.

If you are going to let the tech do the pump down, it would probably be best to let him do the line set modification. It shouldn't take him more than 5 minutes to shorten the lines and make the flairs.

If you're gonna do the whole thing yourself, you should get some good tools and good gauges, including a manifold gauge and a micron gauge to test your equipment to make sure that your tools and techniques are all working properly.

You have an investment there, and the years of proper service you should expect from your equipment deserve your careful attention.

I hadn't finished the previous post, I have edited it to contain the info I started to write.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4289)
Hey, owning a vacuum pump might be useful for other stuff too.
And, like you said, I can always sell it..

I have no plans to let mine go...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4289)
I just read the manual for the AC only unit (borrowed from work) and it
said to vacuum down the lines to 10 mmHg abs, shut off the pump,
then release some R410A into the lines (for 10 seconds), shut it off
and then do a soap bubble test on all the fittings.

That seems simple enough. Hey, that's the same as the AC/HP model too!

Did you use Ester Oil on the fittings before torquing them?

Please see previous post

Best regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-05-09 11:57 AM

Don't have a welder yet. But Sears has the stuff for my wrench..
http://ec1-images.acehardwareoutlet....1000008296.jpg
Sears.com

Just checked my 3/8 wrench against the big one and they match at
40 foot pounds. I think that's around the range I'll need.
But, I don't know what size I'll need yet.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/F021.jpg

Maybe I'll email the dealer and find out.. Bet it's 14mm..

AC_Hacker 10-05-09 02:48 PM

Declining temperature, declining COP...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4277)

According to what I've found, the COP is 3.4 when you are running it full bore.

29,000 BTUh, burning 2,490 watts gives you a 3.4 COP.
But, after things have warmed up and the unit is just coasting along at, say,
4,400 BTU, only burning 290 watts, you get a COP of 4.4 :)

Maybe it's good this thing is a tad over-sided.?.

We have added a bunch of insulation in the past year, and I'm really looking
forward to seeing if I can actually heat my home using 290 watts!! LOL!!
At least on the mild days..

Hey Rich,

I built a small water-in, water-out heat pump and did various test, with this one being a good example: (full thread here)


The light blue line that jumps all over the place is the COP for the five minute period just measured. To make it fit on the graph, I multiplied COP time 10, so if it says that cop is 35, it's actually 3.5.

I'm not exactly sure why it's so jumpy, but there is a definite trendline that can be drawn through the COP values, that is very close to parallel to the temperature of the water coming into the system. Which makes sense when you think of it.

So, when as the outside air temperature gets colder, the COP of our Air-Source Heat Pumps will most surely, also decline.

So this all tells me that there's a point, when another system, like in you case, a hydronic heating system, will be cheaper to operate.

I don't know if you're set up to be able to measure the power that is being drawn by your heat pump, but it would be interesting to know that information.

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Xringer 10-05-09 03:28 PM

I will be able to read 1 watt-hour flashes of the LCD on my meter.
But, I hope not to be standing outdoors when the temp drops to 12 deg F.. :(

Anyways, during heating, max power used is ~ 2.5KW, and that's only good for 8530 BTU
if I used simple space heaters. I would be turning on the oil burner for sure!


I've heard that Sanyo has under-rated this unit and it will put out full heat all the way
down to 17 degs F
. That's 29,000 BTU.. They also say it's 70% efficient at Zero degs F.
If true, that means at Zero, I'll should see 20,300 BTUh of heat!
The actual Sanyo spec says 16,200 BTU at Zero and 22,000 at 17 deg F...

I'm pretty sure that even in the coldest days, I'll be able to get at least
double what a simple space heater can give me for 2.5KW..

Best of all, it hardly ever gets really cold around here.. Too close to the sea I guess.

Xringer 10-05-09 09:28 PM

Leak test
 
When I look at a flare connection, I'm wondering what would be the best
way to test for a leak.?. A vacuum inside the tubing or pressure inside the line-set tubing?

With the shape of outer skirt of the flare, it seems like a vacuum would hold the tube tighter onto the tapered connector.

Whereas 200 PSI of nitrogen inside the line-set would be trying to force
the copper tube off the connector. (kinda like a one-way-valve).

And, nitrogen & 200 PSI gauges are cheap and easy to find.
If it held for a few days, that seems like it would be a pretty good test.

Comments please..

Thanks,
Rich

AC_Hacker 10-06-09 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4314)
When I look at a flare connection, I'm wondering what would be the best
way to test for a leak.?. A vacuum inside the tubing or pressure inside the line-set tubing?

With the shape of outer skirt of the flare, it seems like a vacuum would hold the tube tighter onto the tapered connector.

Whereas 200 PSI of nitrogen inside the line-set would be trying to force
the copper tube off the connector. (kinda like a one-way-valve).

And, nitrogen & 200 PSI gauges are cheap and easy to find.
If it held for a few days, that seems like it would be a pretty good test.

Comments please..

Thanks,
Rich

Rich,

What you're saying does seem reasonable, and pressure probably would be a better test.

But there's an even better reason to pressurize with nitrogen, the dilution principle...

If you pulled a vacuum on the line set & inside unit first, you would be drawing out almost all of the air and water vapor. If you then introduced pressurized nitrogen into the vacuumed system, you would be introducing a very large amount of dry nitrogen into a volume which still contained a small amount of air and water vapor, This remaining air & water vapor would uniformly disperse itself amongst the nitrogen. After testing for leaks, you would need to pump it down again, to draw out the nitrogen and with it would come all but a truly infinitesimal amount of air and water vapor.

Then you'd be off to a really good start...

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-06-09 11:17 PM

I spoke to the tech guy today and we discussed leak testing and he agreed that using nitrogen worked better.
I theorized that under a vacuum, you could completely remove the flare nuts
and it might still hold a good vacuum..

The dilution principle makes pressure testing even better looking.. ;)
He also recommended the MasterCool 3 CFM vac pump. Said it had a check-valve.

Anyways, I'm wondering what type and size of flare nuts I'm going to see
on these 5/8" & 1/4" OD lines? Metric or regular?

AC_Hacker 10-07-09 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4321)

[The Technician] also recommended the MasterCool 3 CFM vac pump. Said it had a check-valve.

I was gonna recommend a cheaper alternative, but I just looked online and they were about $100, so go for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4321)

Anyways, I'm wondering what type and size of flare nuts I'm going to see
on these 5/8" & 1/4" OD lines? Metric or regular?

Your unit may use different fittings than mine, just wait until your stuff arrives and measure it at that time.

You do know that you should use a tubing cutter that uses tiny knife-sharp wheels to do the jub, right? You don't want to use a saw and leave bits of copper to float about in your system.

Your tubes will also have lengths of foam insulation that you'll need to shorten. You can slide the insulation over the end of the tube and make your cut with scissors, then snug the end down to the tube with nylon tie-wraps.

Your tubing will have little plastic caps that keep dirt out of the tubes. The tube is not pressurized or 'filled' or anything. After you cut your tube and slip your flare nut (use the ones that are already on the tube) over the tube, then make the flare.

Then put the little caps back on the tube until you're ready to do the deed.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-07-09 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker (Post 4278)
Good luck with your new unit.

I bought a 9,000 BTU version (12,000 BTU heating) of the Sanyo last year, to carry me through my GSHP project.

-AC_Hacker

How about giving us a little review on it's cold weather operation?
I'm interested in hearing how well it worked in the 20 to 40 degree range.
Since that's what we see around here on a typical winters day..

Xringer 10-07-09 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker (Post 4323)
I was gonna recommend a cheaper alternative, but I just looked online and they were about $100, so go for it.

Your unit may use different fittings than mine, just wait until your stuff arrives and measure it at that time.

You do know that you should use a tubing cutter that uses tiny knife-sharp wheels to do the jub, right? You don't want to use a saw and leave bits of copper to float about in your system.

Your tubes will also have lengths of foam insulation that you'll need to shorten. You can slide the insulation over the end of the tube and make your cut with scissors, then snug the end down to the tube with nylon tie-wraps.

Your tubing will have little plastic caps that keep dirt out of the tubes. The tube is not pressurized or 'filled' or anything. After you cut your tube and slip your flare nut (use the ones that are already on the tube) over the tube, then make the flare.

Then put the little caps back on the tube until you're ready to do the deed.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

The install manual tells you to ream the end of the tube while it's
pointed downwards (page 17).
http://sanyohvac.com/assets/document..._72_Series.pdf

I would still be worried about getting metal particles inside it.
I was thinking maybe stuff some non-lint fabric up in there,
to block the tube up, and then blow it out with a blast of dry air
from the other end.?.

I have two pipe cutters that I use for cutting copper water tubing.
I think the smaller one might be good for this job. It's pretty sharp.
At work, I use a super fine jeweler's saw and a fixture to cut off
0.141 OD hardline coax cable. That will be my backup method,
if my small tube cutter fails to perform. I can make fixture blocks on my Chinese mill.

The manual says "the ideal (or target) vacuum condition is around 10 mmHg abs."
(What does that equal to? Is that 10 Torr? (10 Torr=10,000 Micron?)..

That MasterCool pump does 75 Microns. Will that do the job??
Mastercool Inc., Vacuum Pumps

AC_Hacker 10-07-09 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4327)
The install manual tells you to ream the end of the tube while it's
pointed downwards (page 17).

Copper is pretty malliable stuff... After you cut off the excess tube from your line set, there may be a bit of a 'burr'. But before you start stuffing things inside the tube, use your flare tool and do a practice flare or two on the line you just cut off. I'd be very surprised if there was any burr after you make a flare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4327)
I would still be worried about getting metal particles inside it.
I was thinking maybe stuff some non-lint fabric up in there,
to block the tube up, and then blow it out with a blast of dry air
from the other end.?.

I have two pipe cutters that I use for cutting copper water tubing.
I think the smaller one might be good for this job. It's pretty sharp.
At work, I use a super fine jeweler's saw and a fixture to cut off
0.141 OD hardline coax cable. That will be my backup method,
if my small tube cutter fails to perform. I can make fixture blocks on my Chinese mill.

Probably will not be an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4327)
The manual says "the ideal (or target) vacuum condition is around 10 mmHg abs."
(What does that equal to? Is that 10 Torr? (10 Torr=10,000 Micron?)..


Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4327)
That MasterCool pump does 75 Microns. Will that do the job??
Mastercool Inc., Vacuum Pumps

Should work just great... If you have a micron gauge, you'll know for sure it's working great.

But remember to change the vacuum pump oil just before you do a pump-down. By design, vacuum pump oil absorbs atmospheric water.

Even though your vacuum pump has never been used, it's been sitting and absorbing atmospheric water. Change the oil.

My friend, Bruce-the-Pirate bought a two gallon jug of vacuum oil for some kind of low price. Big mistake. Every time he opens the jug, he's introducing more atmospheric water. Personally I would throw the jug away. But he wears an eye patch and will probably use it anyway.

Buy a small one-shot or two-shot bottle and don't open it until you're ready to use it.

I bought a small plastic two-shot bottle, used half of it, capped the bottle tightly back up and left it on the shelf for a couple of weeks. Now the sides are all caved in because the oil has been sucking the moisture out of the air that was trapped inside the bottle. Pretty amazing. You want that kind of oil to be working for you!

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

P.S.: And remember, I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm just barely a hacker.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Xringer 10-07-09 06:04 PM

I saw this one on Ebay.. JB DV-22N DV-24N Digital Vacuum Micron Gauge with Case - eBay (item 300353500817 end time Oct-09-09 18:03:08 PDT)

Looks like a nice unit.. 20 to 9000 Microns, What do you think?


And, I have a printout of that table right here, but I still didn't know if
I was reading it right.. Until I looked up "Hg" and found it's the
modern chemical symbol for mercury.. LOL!! I'm so forgetful these days!
Or, maybe I never knew that!

I might end up needing to cut off about 4 feet of line-set, and that
tech guy at Ductless HVAC Supply also advised me to practice on
the extra cable. He said after you do about 10 flares, you will likely
do a better job than some AC tech who is in a hurry..


Re: malleable stuff
That tech guy also said I could use a 45 degree flare tool. He said
when you tighten down the nuts real good, it will come down to 37 degs
without a hitch. Just loosen and re-tighten to normal pressure afterwards.
No probleMoe.. I expressed some doubts and he
assured me it works, because the tubing is so malleable..

What do you think?

Yeah, I know you are a hacker like me. But, I also know that a lot of the
Experts I've seen aren't always doing and expert job..

AC_Hacker 10-07-09 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4329)
I saw this one on Ebay.. JB DV-22N DV-24N Digital Vacuum Micron Gauge with Case - eBay (item 300353500817 end time Oct-09-09 18:03:08 PDT)

Looks like a nice unit.. 20 to 9000 Microns, What do you think?

Looks real pretty.

Mine cost me about $137, bought it from a local supplier. If you can get that one for less, you are that much further ahead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4329)
Re: malleable stuff
That tech guy also said I could use a 45 degree flare tool. He said
when you tighten down the nuts real good, it will come down to 37 degs
without a hitch. Just loosen and re-tighten to normal pressure afterwards.
No probleMoe.. I expressed some doubts and he
assured me it works, because the tubing is so malleable..

What do you think?

Well, I didn't know about the angles, that's good to know...

I do know that copper is very forgiving.

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

AC_Hacker 10-08-09 12:33 AM

Here's a link to the assembly lube I used.

http://refrig.com/Product/Sealants/N...ylog_blue.html

This is the stuff they referred to as 'snot'.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-08-09 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker (Post 4333)
Here's a link to the assembly lube I used.

Refrigeration Technologies: Products: Nylog Blue

This is the stuff they referred to as 'snot'.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

I'm just going to ask for it by it's brand name.. :eek:
It looks like just the stuff I need. May have to get it on-line, since
these distributorships don't like selling stuff to DIYers.

Anyways, are your Sanyo flare nuts metric or SAE??
Since I'm thinking of ordering a kit of 3/8 size flare nut crowfeet..

Xringer 10-09-09 02:59 PM

Wow! I've got to read more.. Just found out about the time required to dehydrate your system
takes longer if it's cold out..
Refrigeration Vacuum Pumps

Really shows the need for a good vac meter.

It's 60 here today, so it would take 36 hours! Wow.. Longer than I expected.


How does the HVAC tech do these Mini-Split Install jobs and turn
on the system in just a few hours???

AC_Hacker 10-09-09 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4353)
How does the HVAC tech do these Mini-Split Install jobs and turn
on the system in just a few hours???

That's why you are doing it yourself...

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-09-09 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker (Post 4355)
That's why you are doing it yourself...

Regards,

-AC_Hacker


I guess you kinda have to DIY.. Otherwise the labor cost would be more
than the hardware cost!

Reminds me of Solar PV installations.. LOL!

Xringer 10-11-09 06:00 AM

Found a place locally that sells this 2-stage pump..

Robinair 15150 Vacuum Pump, 1.5 CFM, Two Stage, 110V

Robinair 15150, 15300, and 15500 1.5, 3, and 5 CFM VacuMaster Vacuum Pump - on Sale at the Test Equipment Depot

They have a pretty good price, even with the taxes..

AC_Hacker 10-11-09 01:58 PM

Vacuum Unit...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4363)
Found a place locally that sells this 2-stage pump..

Robinair 15150 Vacuum Pump, 1.5 CFM, Two Stage, 110V

Robinair 15150, 15300, and 15500 1.5, 3, and 5 CFM VacuMaster Vacuum Pump - on Sale at the Test Equipment Depot

They have a pretty good price, even with the taxes..

I think this should be a pretty good unit. If you were working at HVAC for a living, you'd want to get a paying job done as fast as possible, so bigger would definitely be better, especially so if you were working on large systems. But as it is, a smaller unit should be just fine.

The 'vacuuming times' page you cited gives times "as a guide". Since your pump will be on the smaller side, your pump-down times sould be longer, by what factor, I'm not quite sure.

...and as food for thought, I have heard that HVAC techs may, in the middle of a pump-down, close the appropriate valves, change oil, turn on the pump and re-open the appropriate valves and continue on to finish.

A manifold gauge set would give you the valves to do this.

* * * *
Should you need to make up some special fittings, just to save you some grief, I'll share a lesson from a previous experiment. I needed a very small valve to manually control refrigerant flow, so I went to my local big-box retailer and got a needle valve that had compresson ring fittings. I hooked it up, torqued it appropriately, went on with my work, only to watch the compression ring fittings leak like like crazy. My guess is that they were meant for non-refrigerant use, like water or something, and when the rapidly expanding refrigerant hit them and chilled them to some ungodly low temperature, the copper shrank away from the compression ring. I mean I really had a mess on my hands!

Only use brazed fittings (although they refer to these as 'sweat fittings' in the trade, don't be fooled into thinking that you can sweat solder them), or flare fittings.
* * * *

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Xringer 10-11-09 03:11 PM

"...and as food for thought, I have heard that HVAC techs may, in the middle of a pump-down, close the appropriate valves, change oil, turn on the pump and re-open the appropriate valves and continue on to finish."

I was doing some reading on the topic too. Read about people doing 3 pump downs.
Go full vac, fill up with dry air or Nitrogen and repeat three times,
ending with a vacuum.

And, just about everyone says to change the oil before each use..

~~~

Also read about using a micron gauge. One guy had three of them and they all gave different readings.
Another fellow said they were a luxury that you really didn't need,
and spend your money on a good manifold and a good pump and keep it good shape.

I guess that pump is the one. Now I need to look for a good R410A manifold.
Are the fittings going to be compatible?? Or will I need an Adapter?
R410a Adapter KIT Sanyo, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu - eBay (item 400033059094 end time Oct-20-09 17:27:17 PDT)
1/4" Male flare with Schrader valve x 5/16" also known as 1/2"-20 UNF Female.

Thanks!

Xringer 10-11-09 04:23 PM

Robinair 15150 is on the way!
 
Robinair 15150 Vacuum Pump, 1.5 CFM, Two Stage, 110V $141.89
Subtotal $141.89
Shipping & Handling $0.00
Tax $8.87
Grand Total $150.76

I was kinda surprised to see the 15150 in a local e-store for this price.
I looked at about a dozen other sites and most were $50+ higher.

Now, I need to find a local AC supplier where I can buy some pump oil..
Oil Capacity: 7.5 oz. (220ml)!

Edit:
That was fast! Ordered on Sunday and I just got a shipping notice today (Monday).
It should be here tomorrow.

Xringer 10-13-09 01:13 PM

R410A Refrigerant Gauges W/ Hoses & Manifold - eBay (item 290357569109 end time Oct-13-09 11:05:24 PDT)

R410A Refrigerant Gauges W/ Hoses & Manifold
R-410a air conditioning gauges !!!W/ SHUT OFF HOSES!!!

Are on their way.. (I hope)! :)

Edit:
The pump came this afternoon, and it looks pretty good.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/pump.jpg

AC_Hacker 10-13-09 05:37 PM

cute pump!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4397)
The pump came this afternoon, and it looks pretty good.

Wow! Cute pump...

As I recall, I bought one R-410a adapter from my local HVAC supply house. That was all I needed to be able to use my exusting tools.

So you're just about ready to go.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-13-09 07:47 PM

Yeah, the pump matches my Ford Escape.. :)
I'm almost ready, but have no way to really know if the vacuum really low enough. Still looking into that problem.


Was that R-410A adapter one of these?
R410a Adapter KIT Sanyo, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu - eBay (item 400033059094 end time Oct-20-09 17:27:17 PDT)


Thanks,
Rich

AC_Hacker 10-13-09 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4412)
Was that R-410A adapter one of these?

Yeah, it was, but it was just the adapter, and not the whole kit thingie. However, I paid the same amount.

BTW, you mentioned that the local supplier wouldn't sell to you, have you tried other HVAC outlets in your area? I found that here, some would sell to a non-pro, others would not, and others had a work-around that if you paid at a particular store, they'd give it to you when you brought proof of purchase.

Regarding the local supplier that was the most helpful, I found that they did not 'suffer fools lightly', and that they'd answer a few questions per visit, but didn't see themselves in the public education business. So I researched as much of the info as I possibly could on my own and only prevailed upon them for the really tough stuff. They came to understand the scope of my project and were guardedly amazed at what I was trying to do. I also think they even got a kick out of seeing how fast I was absorbing such a broad area of trade-lore.

Good luck,

-AC_Hacker

Xringer 10-13-09 09:30 PM

Okay thanks for the info! I also just got the word on my new R410A hoses.
They are regular 1/4", so the adapter converts it to 1/2" ACME Male-20UN on the Sanyo.
I just 'won' one on Ebay. Be here in a few days.


Questions? I've got a million of them and very little time before the snow
starts coming down!
I know about asking some of these guys too many questions.
Now when I go in to buy parts for my heating system, I know exactly
what I need, and they don't ask me where I work.


Installing this Sanyo doesn't look near as difficult as adjusting the
valve clearances on a 1999 CRV for the first time ever.. :eek:

I'm not too worried about problems. I have a couple of guys on-call if I get in too deep..
I just don't want to have to make that call. :o


Edit:
I just found something at Sears.. It looks just like what I needed.. for a few bucks less.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...ord=Mastercool

AC_Hacker 10-14-09 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer (Post 4414)
Questions? I've got a million of them and very little time before the snow
starts coming down!

I think you're gonna do just fine. You've crossed every 'T' and dotted every 'i' that I know of...

Something you might do though, since you have so many new pieces of equipment, you probably already have a coil of copper tube left over from some previous project. You might want to fold and braze (or solder in this case) one end and put a 1/4" flare on the other, or better yet, if you can find one local, a 1/4" Schrader valve (standard refrigeration part), and do a couple practice pump downs on it, just to get the feel of the process.

I had already kludged together my first heat pump before I installed my Sanyo, so my confidence was fortified just a little.

If you decide to do this with a Schrader valve, the valve core is identical to a car tire valve, and has rubber seals. Make sure to remove the valve core before you solder or braze and do not re-install it until everything is cool to the touch.

* * *

I've been mulling over in my mind what you said previously:

Quote:

Also read about using a micron gauge. One guy had three of them and they all gave different readings.
Not quite sure what he meant by "they all gave different readings", but almost all of the micron gauges today have numerical digital readouts, but they have analog sensors, and there's going to be some variation there. Also, modern micron gauges have a glass bead sensor that can become fouled, but is easily cleaned.

I think that digital outputs can lead people to expect a level of absolute accuracy that may not be warranted. Digital gauges are popular because they have become cheaper to manufacture than analog in some cases, and they are usually easier to read.

One weakness of a numerical digital gauge is being able to convey the nature of variation of the system under measurement. Is there a rythmic swing in voltage, current or pressure? This could be important. If the settling time of the gauge is long, you might never get a sense of the nature of the variation.

Regarding micron gauges, this variation isn't so important, so a numerical readout is appropriate.

But if the person in you cite had three gauges and one read 300 microns, another read 335 microns and another read 400 microns, they're essentially telling him the same thing. If the spread was 70, 115 and 1500, that's a whole different story.

Quote:

Another fellow said they were a luxury that you really didn't need...
I'll never forget the time I was in New Orleans, talking to a local Cajun guy who had just cooked up a great Etuffe. I asked him how he made it, and he said, "Well, you make you some roux, and fry you up some chicken and vegetables to your likin', and flavor it up 'til it tastes right." If I had grown up in Louisiana, and had eaten Cajun food all my life, that would have been enough information for me to make Etuffe. But since I hadn't, "...flavor it up 'til it tastes right", had no meaning to me.

So there's the possibility that after 20 years in the trade, you really don't need that luxury.

There's also the possiblity that his installations lasted past warrantee, but not much more.

* * *

The manifold gauge set is primarily designed to give you information when about what's going on when you are charging a system. It will simultaniously read the pressure of the high side of the system and the low side of the system, and show you if there is abnormal variation happening. Their best accuracy is at mid-scale and they are designed so that the proper levels of charge pressure occur at mid scale.

But the manifold gauge set will not tell you if you've vacuumed low enough to allow for the removal of water. The accuracy is simply not there.

If you have a new pump, with fresh oil, you're probably ok. If your gauge, whether it is a single gauge or a manifold gauge set, is new and with good seals, you're probably ok. If your hoses don't leak, you're probably ok. If you've screwed your fittings down properly, you're probably ok.

But even with twenty years experience, unless you measure your vacuum with a gauge that is designed to measure deep vacuum, you really won't know for sure.

I installed my Sanyo without a micron gauge, I'm probably ok. But in fact, I'm not completely sure.

If I were doing it again, would I leave my micron gauge sitting in my tool box while I was installing a brand new mini-split heat pump?

I think you know the answer.

Quote:

...spend your money on a good manifold and a good pump and keep it good shape.
My advice to you would be to get a good micron gauge, and a cheap (or used) manifold gauge, make a test setup and measure the gauge set to see just how good it is.

...but then, "I'm not an HVAC tecnician, in fact, I'm just barely a hacker."

Best regards,

-AC_Hacker

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Xringer 10-15-09 09:55 AM

Dang! The Sanyo is still on backorder! ETA unknown!

The manifold set and adapter should all be here this week.
Perhaps I can do some testing on the hoses and make sure they are tight.

I've been wondering about making a bell-vacuum jar experiment.

I would build a little tube made of heavy clear plastic with caps and a 1/4" fitting.

Put a drop of water in the tube, pump out the air and watch the drop.
If it quickly vaporizes, not leaving a trace, the vacuum is pretty good.?..


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