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-   -   Auto makers are investing billions in electrified vehicles (https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6518)

pinballlooking 01-15-18 09:16 AM

Auto makers are investing billions in electrified vehicles
 
We are going to have many choices in the coming years.
I am so happy to see the changes announced by all the major auto makers.
New EV’s and hybrids are on the way.

Ford plans $11 billion investment, 40 electrified vehicles by 2022
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1F30YZ

GENERAL MOTORS IS GOING ALL ELECTRIC
https://www.wired.com/story/general-...-cars-plan-gm/

Daimler announces $11 billion investment in electric vehicles
https://electrek.co/2016/11/27/daiml...tric-vehicles/

Volvo Says All its Cars Will Be Electric or Hybrid in 3 Years
http://fortune.com/2017/07/05/volvo-...s-hybrid-2019/


Why the change?
California Considers Following China With Combustion-Engine Car Ban
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...engine-car-ban

BRITAIN'S BAN OF THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...bustion-engine

Paris Wants to Ban the Combustion Engine by 2030
http://fortune.com/2017/10/12/paris-...on-engine-ban/

oil pan 4 01-16-18 01:08 AM

GM also once said they were going to hire 200+ engineers and invest 1 billion to develop hydrogen vehicle technology.
That would have been a waste.

As we have seen time and time again the auto industry buildings what people are willing to buy.

davidmiller 01-16-18 04:52 AM

This is really exciting. I've been always a fan of electric vehicles but I still cannot afford to buy one. They're just too expensive right now. I am sure in the next 5 years I will own one.

AC_Hacker 01-16-18 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmiller (Post 58275)
This is really exciting. I've been always a fan of electric vehicles but I still cannot afford to buy one. They're just too expensive right now. I am sure in the next 5 years I will own one.

Have you checked out the used EV market?

About 4 years ago, Geo_NR_Gee bought a used Nissan Leaf for $7k and he drives it all the time,

I bought a two year old previously leased Nissan Leaf, with only 12k miles, for $13k and it's primo.

If you intend to use your EV for urban or trips less than 70-90 miles or so (one way), Leaf is wonderful. I live in Portland, and most of my trips are not so terribly long. So some days I can go 2 or 3 days without recharging.

I also built a fast charge (L2) kit from OpenEVSE (ultra easy build) and installed it inside an old electric box, all bolted to the side of my house.

Here's the whole story:

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/conser...ssan-leaf.html


It charges the Leaf pretty fast, about 20 miles per hour (one hour of charging will put about 20 miles of motive energy into the battery).


Best,

-AC_Hacker

oil pan 4 01-16-18 06:04 PM

I'm waiting for a $4,000 used leaf to show up within 100 miles of me.

randen 01-17-18 06:37 PM

Its all just lip service
 
I'm not certain what my fellow eco-renovators may believe about the sincerity of the auto-manufactures. I for one don't believe any of the announcements.

Hiring engineers, Spending billions?? where are the cars.!!!?? With the exception of Nissan (Leaf) and the most recent new kid Chevy Volt. They spin some good stories of what their going to produce and we're still waiting.

It took a man from silicon valley to build a fully functional EV that will switch you off the fossil fuel tit with the first test ride and 430,000 customers didn't even need that. The BIG guys are still short on game. Chevy Bolt you say. Well, take it to grandma's house 200 miles away. You'll have to stay a few hours to charge up to get home. The Tesla Supercharger infrastructure will get you back on your way in 15-20min. Elon has publicly said any of the Auto manufactures can adopt the system if they help pay for it.

I'm stunned to see that none have!!!???

Wouldn't that be nice to be able to drive the Chevy Bolt to Grandma's for an hour or two. Then drive home stopping for 20 mins Supercharge to finish the trip in the same day.

Back in 1997 GM made the EV1 (20 yrs ago) Believe it, it had the drive system with the same architecture as the Tesla. Three Phase liquid cooled electric induction motor and inverter motor drive system.

Batteries, its true the first cars had Lead Acid but the solution was only a few months away Ovonics Nickel metal Hydrate Batteries. These are fantastic batteries.

My S-10 EV truck is the little brother to the EV1 and I had driven it with the NIMH batteries (20 yrs. old) they performed well. GM had a 20 yr. head start.!!!??

Corporate Greed, Shareholders and the big manufactures technical inertia are going to keep the same tin on the car lots. Making press releases, promises and announcements to affirm they have our best interests. Oh yes and the concept cars they have absolutely no interest in ever producing just to make the appearance their in the zone!!!

VW had been making press releases for years on the up and coming EVs, where are the cars?? I have yet to see an E-Golf.

Its just a lot of posturing, to keep you, the customers, interest.
Yep even Volvo "between 2019-2021 will make 5 battery electric models"

I don't believe any of it.

Randen

oil pan 4 01-17-18 06:58 PM

They will do it.
If the market suddenly demands electric cars.
Otherwise no. Just posturing like you said.
Trying to get the fake people who pretend to care about the environment to by what they sell now.

pinballlooking 01-17-18 07:45 PM

Having whole countries setting dates to get rid of ICE will help them get working on these.
Nobody wants China be the only country making EV’s and China is putting government money to make new EV happen.
I do believe we are going to see big changes and I would not put it pass CA to outlaw ICE at some point.

I know we really like our Chevy Volt I do believe it is like driving future. (even better cars will come out)

The new Malibu Hybrid uses the Volts system with a small battery pack.
MPG: 49 city / 43 highway
Battery: 1.5 kWh lithium-ion
Horsepower: 182 hp
Fuel tank capacity: 13 gal

oil pan 4 01-19-18 04:33 AM

If all these electrics are made, guess what, the vast majority of them won't be sold in North America.
Just like all the 50 to 60 mpg vehicles that aren't sold here as of now.

Lenahan 02-04-18 08:16 AM

These are certainly exciting times. I can't wait for these cars to become a bit more affordable. Even now, I'm considering getting one, but it's a tough choice.

NiHaoMike 02-04-18 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 58344)
Just like all the 50 to 60 mpg vehicles that aren't sold here as of now.

The Prius seems to be quite popular in the US.

stevehull 02-04-18 04:32 PM

Lots of Prius's here in Edmond, OK -the nearest town to Arcadia, but damn few EVs. When people realize how cheap an EV is to "fuel", then they will get on it. Here, lots of BIG cars and soon all those will become PHEVs.

I am SO excited for this VERY soon to be transition. I am somewhat chagrined for people that either do not believe or are suspicious of the Big 3 (and now Toyota, Nissan, VW, BMW, etc).

The reality is that what happened to ATT and Kodak is about to happen to cars.

Embrace it - don't fight it!

Steve

oil pan 4 02-04-18 07:18 PM

I was talking about the non hybrid cars that do 50 to 60mpg.

Electric vehicles are still mostly for rich land owners.
People who own their own homes, therefore have a place to park, charge them and can afford to have an electrician pull a run of 10ga wire for a L2 charger or 6ga pulled to power a CHAdeMO and fork out $350 to $600 for the stand alone CHAdeMO charger it's self.
That's why I'm getting one.
Sure you can use the level one charger but who only ever wants to drive to and from work and that's it.

randen 02-05-18 04:29 AM

Hmm

As Stevehull has pointed out ATT and Kodak were unable to make the technical advances to remain as the corporate giants they once were I believe the big three are about to enter the same death spiral

This is going to be interesting

Randen

oil pan 4 02-05-18 05:18 AM

Big 3 contains GM. GM makes the volt, which has turned out to be the best selling and will possibly end up being one of the longest lasting plug in hybrids.

randen 02-16-18 01:19 PM

Just sat through a 24 min video of fully charged rambling on about VW ID Buzz an electric re-incarnation to the cult followed VW Bus (van). Oh yes they are going to produce these expected to be available in 2022. I’m sorry I’m so sceptical on these predictions. VWs been promising EVs for years why would this change now. You say dieselgate- this is just a diversion to make you feel good about their company

For your viewing pleasure from 3-4 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY5jNv391rk&sns=em

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSuYOvPV_bo&sns=em

Randen

oil pan 4 02-16-18 09:44 PM

With the autobahn and it's normal speed limit of 83 mph and the fact that going too slow is a ticking offense, why would VW build electric vehicles?
Electric vehicles and 80mph speed limits don't really go together unless it's a tesla.

randen 02-17-18 11:11 AM

To further support my argument I called the EGolf authorized dealer. And the conversation went like this:

We are very interested in an e golf. Can we come and test drive one??

I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news but our allotment this year is sold out and there is a waiting list that is quite lengthy.

Question. What was your allotment this year.

Ok now I was completely stunned with the answer

7 e golfs

Do you really think the manufactures are interested in satisfying the demand for EVs???

Randen

stevehull 02-17-18 12:21 PM

Randen,

Yes, I believe that the auto manufacturers are all 100% on board with PHEV and EV cars/trucks.

There are those that are late to the party - VW/Audi being just one. But the Big 3 in Detroit knows well that standing still is falling behind - just look at the number of Nissan Leafs sold.

My further point is the total electric Chevy Bolt is outselling the PHEV Volt. Soon you will have 350+ mile range with EV cars. I look forward to replacement of Li-ion with quadra valent cobalt batteries (double energy density, much lower production costs, cheaper raw materials, etc) in the next 5-10 years.

I can understand some of your skepticism and frustration with the silliness and antics that the big auto manufacturers have pulled off in the past, but frankly, your statements remind me of people talking of solar PV panels some 5 years ago (too expensive, don't last, just a flash in the pan like the solar water heaters in the 1980's, etc).

China is the BIG issue. The big 3 would like a foothold in that developing country before they develop their own EV industry - and start exporting to the USA.

These USA manufacturers almost went under some 10 years ago - GM being the prominent one. In order to survive, they knew that massive change was absolutely necessary. And they have - yes, some mistakes, but the momentum under Mary Barra (GM) is unmistakable.

Sorry to be blunt - but that is how I (and many others) see it.

Respectfully,

Steve

stevehull 02-18-18 08:49 AM

Tesla delays, tax credit concerns spur sales of Chevy Bolts

Reuters Reuters•February 17, 2018

Show attendees look over a Chevrolet Bolt EV electric vehicle at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit



SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Some potential buyers of Tesla's long-delayed Model 3 sedan are concerned that they will miss out on big federal tax breaks and are looking for alternatives, including General Motors Co's (GM.N) Chevrolet Bolt, according to postings by would-be Tesla buyers on websites and interviews with GM dealers.

Last week Tesla told some holders of Model 3 reservations that they would not get their cars until 2019, eliciting howls of complaint on Tesla online fan forums. Tesla declined to comment.

GM dealers in California, the top U.S. market for electric vehicles, say brisk demand for Bolts is driven in part by frustrated Tesla buyers who are afraid they will lose a $7,500 electric vehicle tax credit if they wait. The tax credit drops in value and eventually disappears once Tesla sells 200,000 electric vehicles in the United States, which Edmunds analyst Jeremy Acevedo expects Tesla to hit by the fall.

Tesla's Model 3 production troubles give rival auto makers a chance to snatch customers. Tesla has said that the net number of refundable $1,000 reservations for Model 3s was stable late last year and grew in recent weeks, with hundreds of thousands in line. But some buyers are running out of time or patience.



Chevrolet dealer Yev Kaplinskiy said his dealership located between San Francisco and Silicon Valley sold 15 Bolts last weekend, after Tesla's latest delay.

"We're getting the Tesla people who wanted their Model 3," Kaplinskiy said. "We ask them, 'What other cars are you interested in?' They're mostly Tesla. But they want the car now. They don't want to wait." Some of the weekend buyers had turned to Chevy because of the most recent Tesla delay, he said.

Chevrolet sent an email to some prospective buyers this week, announcing in bold case, "Bolt EV: Now available."

The Bolt and Model 3 both start at about $35,000 and can travel more than 200 miles (322 km) on an electric charge, although the Tesla and its Chief Executive Elon Musk have received much more media attention.

While Tesla is struggling with production of the Model 3, GM sold 23,297 Bolts in 2017, with monthly sales mostly rising. Kelley Blue Book reported that Bolts are in relatively short supply as measured by days in inventory, which fell to 42 in January from a high of 65 in August. By comparison, the Nissan Motor Co Ltd <7201.T> Leaf, an electric car with shorter range, was in inventory for 202 days.

For a graphic on 2017 Bolt sales, click here: http://reut.rs/2sxeVt9


Last Wednesday, some of those who made early reservations for the base version Model 3 received emails from Tesla saying their vehicles would not be delivered until early 2019, delayed from 2018.


"My objective...was always a $35,000 Tesla for the price of a decently optioned Civic (with full federal tax credit)," 206er added.

Tesla is closing in on 200,000 U.S. electric vehicle sales thanks to the popularity of its luxury Model S sedan and Model X SUV. If it hits 200,000 U.S. electric vehicle sales in the third quarter, then the $7,500 tax credit would phase out in stages over 2019.

GM also is getting close to the limit, having sold nearly 170,000 plug-in cars, including Bolts, Volts and others, through the end of last year, Green Car Reports estimated.

Sonoma Chevrolet General Manager Ken Scholl, said the subsidy had been a key draw for Bolts and a concern for those who had given up on a Tesla. "If I had 50 (Bolts) in December, we would have sold every one," he said.



(Additional reporting by Joe White; Editing by Peter Henderson and Lisa Shumaker)

randen 02-20-18 01:33 PM

Which report on production numbers do we believe. Electrac says that GM has produced over 20000 Bolts as of Dec 2017

Tesla is reported by Wikipedia over 300000 produced Maybe not all sold in the USA but that’s the number they have reported for Feb 2018

How is it one of the automotive giants have let this happen. I can’t believe their serious. They had the technology 20 years ago and they have been manufacturing vehicles for a hundred years ,wheels ,chassis ,seats ,steering wheel -the only thing different is the motor and batteries The balance of the car should seem familiar to them.

I guess it’s kinda like NASA. If you can return a rocket to the launch pad don’t you think we would have done that!!??

Complacency. We’ve always done it like that

Running out of cars for a manufacture the size of GM???? “ If I had 50 more cars I would have sold them all”

Internal combustion vehicles are making them money. That’s what they know and that’s what they are going to sell you.
I shouldn’t just highlight GM Pick one

It’s going to be interesting and I’m happy to have a seat to watch the outcome in the next few years

Randen

randen 02-25-18 11:17 AM

OK OK

I will cease my ranting and move my efforts to more constructive work.

We have two EVs in the stable and are loving them. One just happens to be a famous GM product, an OEM electric S-10EV

I have not bought gasoline in 2 yrs. with the exception of borrowing my dads truck. Believe me it never gets old driving past a gasoline station. So for the bottom line saving more than $3500.00 per yr.

My concentrations are now focused on approaching Net Zero for my electrical needs.

See :Anyone working toward Off Grid

pinballlooking 04-09-18 09:13 AM

"McKinsey and A2Mac1 analyzed design choices that can help pave the way to profitable mass-market EVs."

This is a good read

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/...***-market-evs

If you do not want to follow the link just google.
"McKinsey and A2Mac1 analyzed design choices "

randen 04-09-18 06:14 PM

I know I promised to leave it alone but it seems I’m not the only skeptic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TabS-GK-3vA&sns=em


Randen

pinballlooking 04-11-18 09:05 AM

If you are considering buying a EV and will get a tax credit. Keep this chart in mind.

https://insideevs.com/top-6-automake...-credit-limit/

Chevy and Tesla are getting closer to no tax credit.

MN Renovator 04-11-18 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinballlooking (Post 58980)
If you are considering buying a EV and will get a tax credit. Keep this chart in mind.

https://insideevs.com/us-federal-750...ker-estimates/

Chevy and Tesla are getting closer to no tax credit.

That's the Jan 2017 link, here's a newer update for April 2018
https://insideevs.com/top-6-automake...-credit-limit/

pinballlooking 05-08-18 10:01 AM

Many new EV's coming to bad most of them are on the higher end.
VW is stepping up from everyday buyers.


"Can Tesla survive the surge of EV competitors from Jaguar, BMW, VW, and others?"
Tesla Killers: Rise of the E-Machines - Motor Trend

if you don't want to follow the link just google "Can Tesla survive the surge"
select motortrend link.

oil pan 4 05-08-18 07:08 PM

People may be concerned with catastrophic resale value like with the leaf.
Or not be sure they are going to have a place to charge.
Until I get 240v power out the the garage it could take up to 20 hours to recharge my leaf on 120v power if I run the battery down.
For me it's only a matter of time, at our last place I had four 240v receptacles, one for the backyard, one in the garage in addition to the dryer and one on either side of the house towards the front yard, all 30 to 70 amp circuits.

ecomodded 05-11-18 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randen (Post 58968)
I know I promised to leave it alone but it seems I’m not the only skeptic
Randen

When the masses switch to electric cars Im hoping Oil prices are reduced as a counter measure. Fuel prices will have to be cut by like 1/2 or all the commuters will be driving electric cars (which is good) just not good for the oil companies

As it is I have a VW diesel that I don't really want to get rid of :)

ecomodded 05-11-18 01:49 AM

Ford is getting out of the car business and moving to a SUV and Truck only line up. I expect they will have electric trucks but who knows how predominate they will be...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEhIbue_FFA

Ford is cleaving an additional $11.5 billion from spending plans and dropping several sedans, including the Fusion and Taurus, from its lineup to more quickly reach an elusive profit target.

The automaker is almost doubling a cost-cutting goal to $25.5 billion by 2022, Chief Financial Officer Bob Shanks told reporters Wednesday. By not investing in next generations of any car for North America except the Mustang, the company now anticipates it’ll reach an 8 percent profit margin by 2020, two years ahead of schedule.

Ford is trying to kick-start a turnaround that’s yet to take hold almost a year after the board ousted its chief executive officer. Getting rid of slow-selling, low-margin car models and refocusing the company around more lucrative trucks and SUVs is a crucial element of new CEO Jim Hackett’s rebound bid. By 2020, almost 90 percent of Ford’s North American portfolio will be pickups or sport utility and commercial vehicles. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ad-margin-goal

oil pan 4 05-11-18 11:30 AM

Well you have to remember, for a while there gas was $2 a gallon, the government was highly encouraging the auto makers to push cars on to market that people simply are not going care about until gas goes over $3 a gallon.

ecomodded 05-11-18 12:29 PM

In Canada the push appears to be already on or its just money grabbing by the oil companies once again.. check out the high in Vancouver last week

Gas prices hit record 160.9 cents a liter in Vancouver ( $6 ca. u.s gal )

Gas prices hit record 160.9 cents per litre in Vancouver | CBC News

In my City its currently @ $1.45 liter / $5.48 ca. us a gallon

pinballlooking 05-11-18 12:53 PM

If ford makes 90% trucks an SUV’s and gas prices go back to $4 gal they will be hurting.

2019 Subaru Crosstrek PHEV will be company's first plug-in hybrid
https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2018/05...rosstrek-phev/

ecomodded 05-12-18 01:54 AM

Sounds like Vw is ready to take up the slack and I like German vehicles ,the wheel bearings on my Beetle look fit for a Porsche ,Massive needle bearings. . Probably the same the car only cost $25,000 20 years ago.. its a 98 and gets me 62 mpg imp.

oil pan 4 05-12-18 07:24 AM

I have found VW liquid cooled gasoline powered cars to be over priced, overly complicated, mediocre reliable with high operating costs. They are great cars. Just not for very long.
I will never own another VW product again.

Looks like we can count ford out for dumping money into electric cars.

ecomodded 05-12-18 10:31 AM

Gas cars in general blow VW's diesel cars are where its at I get better mileage then the hybrids being offered and my cars a 20 year old econo box , I get 62mpg mixed without pules n gliding

pinballlooking 05-16-18 08:43 AM

2019 Honda Insight hybrid production begins in Indiana

"It's the fifth electrified vehicle Honda has launched in the past 18 months"

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...mage=100648217

https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2018/05...egins-indiana/

pinballlooking 05-16-18 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecomodded (Post 59135)
Gas cars in general blow VW's diesel cars are where its at I get better mileage then the hybrids being offered and my cars a 20 year old econo box , I get 62mpg mixed without pules n gliding

You pay 20% 25% more for fuel to get 20 to 25% better mileage.

Now 20 years ago diesel was cheap.

oil pan 4 05-20-18 06:29 PM

I think we can count ford out.

GM already lost a ton of money on the hybrid Silverado that only lasted 2 or 3 years.

pinballlooking 05-21-18 10:12 AM

The hybrid attempt on the Tahoe by GM was a half-hearted attempt. If they build one off the Volt tech it will be well received if they keep cost in check.
I would love to have one.

W-15 Pickup | Workhorse
Very cool pickup 75 EV miles you can plug in your tools.
MPG with Range-Extender
28 highway, 32 city
460 horsepower
0-60 miles per hour in 5.5 seconds
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