Protecting your new LED lighting??
 

I've seen reports of LED blubs lasting for a very short time,
where others with the same model LEDs lasted just fine.

A few folks think some of the failures might be due to spikes on the AC line..

I've been meaning to get some surge protection for my Sanyo ASHP,
and now that I've invested in a bunch of LEDs, I've been looking for
some whole house Surge protection. All out of stock at Lowes & HD.. :(

But, I found some chspt2micro protectors on Ebay..
EATON Cutler-Hammer Whole House Surge Trap / CHSPMICRO | eBay

I've read some info about installation and how well these work,
on Amazon etc, and the ebay price isn't too bad..
Oh no! Only 4 left in stock!! (I just ordered one).. :D

I just saw this bit of info about Triac dimmers..

GreenMark Inc.

"Figure 1 shows the current waveform of triac dimmer at different dimming levels.
We can clearly see the disastrous power factor and severe current spikes at various dimming levels."

http://www.green-mark.com/images/tri...0waveforms.png

Jeepers, that's spike-o-rama!

That's a pretty good price.

This is the one I bought and installed last year.
Leviton 51120-1 Whole House Surge Suppressor / Surge Protector - Smarthome

I'm curious on what should be a "minimum" surge amp rating we should consider for a whole house surge protector?
The Eaton one is 36K and the Leviton is 50K.

When thinking of purchasing one contact your utility company some of them have whole house surge suppressors that they sell and will install. I believe a few of them will also cover some damages if the unit fails and damages any equipment.

That says "36k amp surge current capacity per phase rating"..
Does that mean 36K for each side of the box? 72k amps total?

I know very little about these things. Lightning hits are rare around here.

I read some reviews and one user described how a lightning storm worked
over his neighborhood, zapping electronics all over the place,
but his home's electronics weren't touched.
I said to myself, wow! That's the one for me!

But afterwards, I remembered when a big tree 30 yards across the street got hit.
Killed their GDO and my phone Modem.. Nothing else was damaged.
I was in the basement when it hit. All kinds of sparks snapping all around me,
as the juice headed down the slope into the swamp in my backyard..

All my ham gear (connected to antennas) & PCs were fine..
I think the EMP hitting the phone line is what killed the modem.
It was still trying to work. It could actually call out, but could not hear..

It's all random. If the hit is major, nothing is going to stop it. (IMHO).

What I need protection from, is the power company!
Sometimes they sent us about 256 volts and it has noise on it.
Plus, it's flat-topping.. That's without much load..


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...CL/ACdirty.jpg

I think, aside from lightning strikes, these surge protectors pay for themselves during windstorm or icing events, where trees fall on the powerlines and cause "false trips", where the utility's circuit breakers trip and automatically reset several times before finally staying out. In the last two years I have had two of these protectors installed on panels at jobs that I have done, and the one in particular, has almost eliminated false burglar/fire alarm signals. I've wondered, considering how effective they are, why they are not a mandatory code requirement.

When you have a while to read, you might look at this:
Lightning Protection
It's the most comprehensive post I have seen on protecting anything from lightning and power companies too.

Well, the chspt2micro is now installed.. And, nothing in the house has been damaged by surges.. ;)

The install sheet said to use an un-used 15A dual breaker, to connect
to each side of the line (lights up two status LEDs).
But, I connected the hot wires (red & blk) to my Sanyo's 20A breaker.
Which, is where I want max protection. :)

If I understand you correctly, you connected both wires to one breaker?
Wouldn't that only protect one leg of the system?

Sorry, maybe I should have said, "my Sanyo's dual 20A breaker".. (These Sanyo units run on 230vac and require a dual breaker).

Ok, that makes sense. I was kind of surprised that your Sanyo could run on a single 20A breaker. :D

Just putting this in here to make sure everybody knows...

The breaker for your HVAC device needs to be a bit less than the Locked Rotor Amps (AKA: LRA). This is the worst case scenario when the compressor's rotor is unable to turn, but still has FULL ELECTRICAL POWER applied. This situation MUST trip the breaker switch, or terrible things will happen.

The breaker also needs to be big enough to allow the HVAC equipment to run under full load.

The installation instructions will spell all of this out for you.

Unfortunately, this is one situation where you DO need to read the instructions.

This is very important.

-AC_Hacker

Yeah, I looked at the rotor LRA number..

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/F106.jpg

17.5 amps.. Which means you need a 15A breaker on this system..
But what's the deal with the Max and Min info on the lines right above the LRA?

And then much later you see this..

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...er/NCL/5kw.jpg

22.5A at 240v = 5.4 KW???? Dang! What's up with that?

Xringer; I see in one of your posts that you piggybacked your protector onto your mini-split's 20A breaker? Is this wise? By connecting to the load side of that breaker you may be cheating the rest of your home out of the surge protection if that breaker should trip for a bona fide reason. If, for instance, the utility voltage drops in the early stages of a storm (voltage goes down- current goes up), and the current goes up, and causes the breaker to trip, you may have no surge protection as the storm progresses.
I realize that may seem like an extreme situation, but that is the nature of the device.
The reason they suggest connecting to an unused (or new 15A 2P) breaker is that it is a safe way to connect to a live service, the breakers terminals are designed for smaller conductors, and you can make all your connections then flip the toggle on the breaker to put the suppressor into service.
Many manufacturers recomend installing the device as close to the utility conductors as possible, there are even encapsulated weatherproof models available, designed to be installed on the triplex at the top of your service mast, or within your meter base. These models require a disconnect/reconnect from the power company, so there is a bit more planning and expense involved.
I hope that this is helpful. Rob

IIRC, since the breakers were installed about 35 years ago, (goodbye fuses) we have never had one pop open.
And we do get a LOT of over-voltage.

IMHO, the inverter type mini-split power supply will not load down the 230ac line,
and try to pull in big surges of amps during voltage sags.

Motor power usage is controlled by two things.
A. Pulse frequency from the controller board. (Which has no power or RPM feed-back).
B. The voltage of the 230 AC line. (Connected to diodes to make DC).

In the case of (A), the controller has to get feed-back from the temperature
sensors in the system and/or orders from the remote control unit (via my thumb).
All of these inputs are way too slow to cause anything but a 'normal' change in current.

(B), A sudden drop in line voltage going to be buffered by
the charged capacitors in the DC power supply of the unit.
Any change in current draw will come after a time lag..
And, that change won't occur in microseconds, it will be slow and will be synchronous with the sine wave of 60hz AC supply.

Plus, I care a lot more about a mini-split not getting zapped,
than anything else we leave connected to the grid. :D

I wasn't questioning the abilities of your heat pump, rather, I was trying to illustrate the reasoning behind the manufacturers installation instructions.

I was responding to your idea that a drop in voltage would "causes the breaker to trip",
by over-explaining :o why that can't happen. (with the Sanyo).

The "manufacturers installation instructions" aren't too bad,
they tell you to cut the length of their long leads to the minimum needed.
And my 'guess' about using the 15A dual breaker is to limit the fire hazard,
in case the internals of the unit shorted out completely.
(Legal dept helped with that one)?

One minor problem with using a 15A breaker, is the coils in those breakers
will likely be resistive, because of the fast rise-time of power spikes.
(Due to the inductive reactance of the coil).
That would allow a fast spike on the buss to pass into your house wiring
during the time it was working it's way past the coils in the 15A breaker.

If you take a look at the back of a typical PC power supply's AC input,
http://www.williamson-labs.com/image...-recptical.jpg
You will see the best way to add protection to a device, is to connect
your protective parts directly to the AC line (and ground).

(voltage goes down- current goes up)


How?basic ohms law- if the potential difference goes down (incoming voltage decreases) then across a fixed resistive load the current and power across the load will decrease. Eg if you have 100volts across a 1 ohm load, then it will pull 100 amps. If you decreased the voltage to 50v, then across the same 1 ohm load, it will pull 50 amps. I=V/R .

The power quadruples when the voltage is doubled or the resistance halved. P=VI eg the same 100 volts at 100 amps will be 10000 watts. At 50 volts, and 50 amps, the power is 2500 watts.

If you lost a phase on a 3 phase supply, then the remaining 2 phases would overload at certain points in the 3 phase motors rotation. This would cause a breaker to trip.

I guess you are talking exclusively about inverter drive technology, not the old school stuff!

I think he was talking about what might happen during a storm..
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/lighti...html#post16672

That it might be possible for the line voltage coming into my house to drop down,
cause excessive current flow to my (reactive?) load, thus causing higher current
to trip the large circuit breaker I'm using to feed a Sanyo ASHP.
(Leaving the rest of my house wiring unprotected,
because the protection device is attached to the output of that large circuit breaker).


It seems like a very unlikely scenario.. But, since the Sanyos use modern
Inverter Technology, the current could increase (to maintain power),
as the voltage dropped..

However, now that I have installed precision 10A limiting,
low voltage/high current could cause the power to be completely disconnected from the Sanyos.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...r-limiter.html

A low line voltage (maybe under 220vac) while the Sanyo wanted to burn 2.4 KW,
could kick the current up to around 11A, shutting the system down for a while.

If we start getting a lot of Brown-Outs, I'll have to re-adjust to 11A. :)

~~~
One guy had his electrician buddy wire up a 240 drop for his mini-split and he mis-wired it for 120vac.. :eek:
BUT, it still ran! But only in Cooling mode.. Even when he changed the control to heat mode..
I think maybe his 4-way valve wouldn't pull in on a mere 120vac..
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post16160

I've recently installed some custom LED lighting. The other night I was sitting in my office during a pretty bad thunderstorm, and when lightning struck, the LED lights in my office actually came on for a second - which is very weird, because they were turned off at the switch!

There's also another fixture in the hallway, which was turned on at the time. It seems that the surge hasn't done any damage - they work just like they did before. It's possible that the transformers I use have built-in surge protection though - I've got the LED drivers built into my walls, and the light switches are just switching 12V.

http://www.hobbyprojects.com/ri_in_A...images/acl.gif

The fast rise time of the lightning-jolt into an iron core transformer,
results in a high input XL (measured in ohms) which makes
the transformer a somewhat protective device.

The turned OFF lighting flashing ON during a nearby strike might have been EMP effects.
The LEDs are diodes and will convert any strong magnetic field pulse into a short burst of DC voltage.
The wires between the transformer and LEDs (and between LED elements) act like an antenna.
If you had a Ham radio guy living next door, your LEDs might be flashing every night! :eek:

The other explanation for the flash is a high voltage arc jumping past
the switch contacts and charging the primary of the transformer with
one quick jolt of power..

I like the EMP theory, since my Ham HF radio forced me to add ferrite RF blockers on my solar HW controller's sensor lines.
The high resistance of the thermistors and the long wire run up to the roof,
made that circuit a perfect HF antenna. The relays were banging like crazy
when the SSB transmitter was running. :o

~~~
The reason EMP generators are weapons against solid state devices (Computers & LEDs etc)
is because many of the semiconductor junctions in these devices can be badly damaged by a little too much current.
That's also the reason you need to wear a grounded static strap while working on your PC mother board.. :)

EMP is also the reason preppers (and the DOD) build EMP shielded storage containers,
to store their emergency back-up electronic devices.

Nice, thanks!

I was wondering if it was EM. There's about 35 feet of wiring between the switch and the LEDs in the wall, which would make for a pretty good antenna.
It shouldn't be an arc over the switch, since the switch is after the transformer (which is fully electronic, so no iron core/coil).

Anyway, I think with a modern electronic transformer, you'll end up with pretty good protection against power surges and similar mishaps such as short circuits. You could add separate surge protection before the transformer if you wanted to be sure, but I'm not certain what off the shelf options are available.

I think you have wrong information about led lights they generally do have long life span.

I've got 20 120VAC LEDs installed.
 

LEds video by Xringer | Photobucket

And, I've had four go bad, after less than a year.
So, I wouldn't necessarily recommend this brand to my friends.

Which brands went bad on you?
I watched your video and it looks like you have at least two different brands and one looks like a phillips.

We got about 6 of the phillips we've been using for close to year now without any problems but these have a 6 year warranty on them which is nice.

The Phillips LEDs are fine.. But the Lowes Utilitech 40w and their designer blubs aren't so good. Infant mortality maybe..
The last one started to strobe but the others just stopped emitting.