Building a large shop with SIPS
 

Fixing tractors, repairing/sharpening 20 foot wide mowers in the barn with animals looking on, the livestock guardian dogs stealing tools has inherent difficulties, much less the manure on the floor.

The plan, for about five years has been to build a shop of perhaps 35 x 40 feet. Nothing fancy, just a pole barn with metal skin. Pavers on the floor for water drainage, 20 amps of electricity for a few lights. I carved out an area with a bulldozer a couple years ago and allowed for subsoil to compact through a few heat/cold cycles.

But then I got thinking. I really need this big enough for a roof top 10 kW PV system. And I really need a large overhang on side going out ~ 25 feet to store 1200 lb rolls of hay and it would be great if I could drive the big Deere tractor in there (cab is almost 10 feet to top) to work on.

OK, now it is 40 x 60 feet. Overhang needs to have a 1x12 pitch so I need to start that side shed roof about 12 feet up so I can get tractor in there to place and get hay. So must have 12 foot tall sidewalls.

If I am going to work in there in summer, a metal building will be hot as hell. What does it cost to spray in 3 inches of foam on walls and under roof. Yikkes!! That goes for almost $3 per sq foot.

And windstorms are common here so it needs to be strong so I really need to beef up metal walls.

Back on the bulldozer to enlarge space and to allow long axis of barn east west to allow southern roof to point south.

Long story short. I am in the process of building with SIPS. Structurally insulated panel system. Turns out, the cost of the SIPS was lower than a traditional metal framed and spray insulated building.

Pictures coming.

Steve

I look forward to see more on this. This was cheaper than a metal building?
It I funny how projects grow.

I am "in for the ride" ! I personally discovered SIP a few years ago and am convinced, if I ever build a structure that will be heated and/or cooled I will use SIPs !

Lots of questions.

• Did the SIP supplier provide plans ?
• What thickness are the walls and roof ?
• There are several different methods of "spline-ing" the panels together. What does your supplier use for both walls and roof sections ?
• The roof panels have to be over 20' long. I assume they are one piece, correct ?
• From a rookie perspective, the ridge joint and the joint at the top of the wall look a bit tricky. Pictures or diagrams, please !

The OP states it is cheaper when you add in the cost of spray foam.

With SIP construction 4-6" walls are common. Same with 8-12" roof panels. Much better than 3" of spray foam and almost as air tight !

Usually with SIP construction, the big savings is on heating and cooling.

Our weather is milder you don’t see metal buildings insulated with spray foam around here. They are now insulating with the foil bubbles.

Most pole barns/metal buildings are not really "weather tight". They are primarily to keep things dry. Foil bubble insulation would be terribly inadequate if you were building a building that you wanted to heat/cool in SC !!

The OPs 40x60 building (2400 sq ft) could probably be heated and cooled by a 3 ton mini-split heat pump with 3 - 4 air handlers. By "traditional" standards that would be undersized, but with sufficient wall and ceiling insulation and decent windows and doors, I think it would work.

He never said he was going to heat or cool it. I never said that is what we use for heating and cooling.
It just keeps it from getting hot or really cool. The guy next door just put one in with a ridge vent it and it stays pretty nice in there it just has foil bubble insulation. Yes in SC

Surprising ! :thumbup:

Some details .. . .

Walls are 4 inch SIPS, 12 feet long. Spline is a 2x4 glued and stapled to the next SIP. Roof is on trusses (4/12 pitch). Trusses every 4 feet. Roof panels 6 inch SIPS.

Metal "ag" panel roof (24 G) with white metal trim.

Both sides of the SIP are 1/2 inch oriented strand board (OSB). Roof overhang on all sides of 1 foot.

Small area inside for conditioned space office (12 x 28 feet). Insulated metal overhead doors (14 feet wide x 10 feet high).

Outside is 1/4 ply (0.25 inch) 4x8 plywood sheets rough cut to look like cedar. Battens (3 inch) then go up vertically every 1 foot to cover plywood edges and to match other barn on property. Stain is a light gray color (sorta looks like old cedar).

All built on 18 inch concrete (3500 psi) stem wall (6 inch thick) with J both holding down plate every four feet. Stem wall on 18 inch diameter piers about 3-6 feet deep) until rock was hit.

I am putting in at least 10 hours of work a day . . . exhausting.

Steve

hly crap that building is never going to fall down / blow over.

What a lot of work your describing incredible really. Helluva job

It sounds like a great project but we need pictures.

I assume you mean "tall". Panels are typically 4' wide.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...0&d=1414548998

The panel is attached to pressure treated dimensional lumber that is attached to the foundation. This type of constructions uses a LOT of construction adhesive !

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1414548998


This is a bit unusual. This is probably the most cost effective solution for your application.

Roof panel are typically made one piece from the ridge down to the overhang, if possible. The roof panel is then set on a structural ridge beam and the top of the wall. If the "spline" is too long for 1 piece of dimensional lumber or the dimensional lumber is not strong enough for the length (as is likely in your case), they may use a wooden I-beam. If the panel is too long, purlins can be installed end to end and then shorter panels are joined on top of the purlin.

The insulating value of the SIPS is really just icing on the cake. I get really tired of mice, rats, bugs - especially scorpions when you are working on the ground. The SIP structure is almost bug vermin free.

Strength was another major factor. We get a lot of "straight line" winds here in Oklahoma and metal buildings just get beat up rather fast.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, this SIP is a trial run as we are going to tear down the old farmhouse we are living in and will rebuild with SIPS. Perhaps 6-8 inch walls and 8-10 inch roof. There is a learning curve and my local contractor and I have figured out most of them by doing this shop.

What did I do . . . Got the pad ready and leveled. Put up batter boards/string for layout. Dug piers into ground ten feet apart. Bent a lot of rebar for piers. Watched concrete crew fill pier holes (could have done this myself) and put in rough water line and electrical conduit. Built forms for stem wall, had crew come in with clips and assemble forms. I did all the rebar work in forms. Watched concrete crew fill forms, level it and put in J bolts. They screwed up on this and did not put them in where I marked the forms. A few of the J bolts ended on where the 2x4 wood spline held side walls together (some spade drilling necessary). Then I pulled off forms and filled interior of site with fill dirt to elevate interior space to within 3 inches of final level.

Scoured Lowes and HD for doors with minor dings. Found doors for almost 60% off that need a bit of TLC (scraped paint) on corner. Now looking for similar windows (fixed glass) three being 5x6 feet and two being 6x4 feet.

Waiting on metal trim before metal "ag" roof install. Today we caulk all corners and foam up a few places where we burned out a bit too much foam. Not truly necessary, but lessons learned.

SIPS don't come with a lot of instructions and an important lesson is to label each as it comes off truck with a sticker that tells you the size, outside, inside, etc. I will do the house with stickers - blue for outside, red for inside, yellow for down edge, pink for up edge, etc. This will reduce a LOT of the flipping and head scratching we did (wasted time). The SIPS get heavier and heavier with each flip . . .

Now I just have to figure out how to get the pictures off the iPhone, onto my computer and to this site!

Another benefit is that after this few weeks of real work my work jeans fall off . . . .

Steve

Wizard, Yes, I meant the side panels were 12 feet TALL. Got used to measuring all the panels when they were on the ground stacked up.

The roof panels were tough as there were 8, 10, 12 and 14 foot panels. All 4 feet wide. Cut up some business cards to the geometry above and moved them about on paper until all panel edges ended on truss.

Steve

Sounds like a perfect application for a mini-split heat pump.

Hmm ... Not common in my neck of the woods ! The stem wall would be dug down to the frost line, formed and poured.

Brick pavers are expensive around here. I like the idea, but I would not want to stain them with oil or whatever.

I recommend you reconsider this ! You could install a 6 circuit breaker panel feed by 50-60A from your main using MHF direct burial wire for not a whole lot more (depending on the distance from main breaker panel). Plan for the future

Ain't it great !

I am not an iPhone guy but just email them to yourself get the email on your computer and post them.

I'm a iPhone guy , you can plug it into your computers usb port without any special software , windows will ask you if you want to download the photo and video files off it.

But it may not work for full quality pictures that way, Apple and windows do not get along so well without software.

If you don't mind having it on your computer Download itunes and it will import your photos off the phone for you from there you can move them to your picture folder in windows.

Just plugging into the USB port may work fine without itunes.

Wizard,

I ended up burying in conduit #6G copper, 240 v sp. That will allow me a lot more power (10kW) in or out.

Got lots of 12x12 pavers already here. I buy them by the truckload as they are cheap ($1 each) and can be sealed with concrete sealer.

Remember where I am at (Oklahoma). Our frost line is maybe 18 inches and the piers that I put in are clearly overkill.

And yes, a 30K mini spilt would be perfect. But that will have to wait a year or so . . . . .

Pictures coming!

Steve

Where are the pics? :)

My iphone 6 seems to have a glitch as I can't send the pictures. I think I configured the phone wrong to work with secureserver.

Pics soon!

Steve

*poke* for pics! :)

I will second the picture request. This building method is very interesting.

OK, OK. . . I will figure out how to get the pictures on the cell phone transferred. Latest is that over head shop lights are installed, outside stained and overhead doors/windows installed.

Got an interesting mosquito borne tropical virus while in Puerto Rico several weeks back and that has slowed me down (chikugunya). Sadly, lots of muscle aches and a long time for full recovery. Not whining and still working like I always do on the farm (and now shop) but it has made me think . . . .

Steve

Any worry about moisture and the OSB on the sips? I would worry about water wicking up the edges of the OSB in a shed environment

Post pics please we are interested

OSB, like any sheeting should never touch dirt or even concrete. The recommend installation is a "nailer" attached to to the PT sill plate. In this example the nailer appears to be a 2x4 and the sill plate a 2x6.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...4&d=1418429809

Edge Gluing to OSB vs. Tornado Alley
 

SH,

This roof-wall attachment looks a bit flakey to me...


You are anchoring your roof to a 2 x 6-ish that has its edges glued to OSB??

Really? Glued to OSB??


I looked up Arcadia, OK map and here's what I got:



Then I Goggled "Tornado Alley Map", and here's what I got:



SH, is my imagination, or is Arcadia at the very heart of Tornado Alley?

With global weather changing, the tornadoes could get even stronger and more frequent? What are the chances?

Maybe Tornado Alley will move to Texas, where it belongs, and just leave Oklahoma alone.

Oh, it's already in Texas...

-AC

AC,

The connection of the wall to the roof is done with the aid of 2x6 trusses. Furthermore, I used steel strapping screwed on the truss top and then down the side of the wall (each two feet). I also used J bolts in the concrete on 4 foot centers (code 10 feet) to additionally prevent lift.

The schematic that was posed on SIP construction is only one of many that are out there. I choose to add in strapping, extra point nailing, and far more construction adhesive than was called for. Then on the exterior, I put on plywood and 2 inch vertical battens every foot to further hold the plywood on. That further strengthens the exterior.

As for tornados. Every region has weather issues and these really scared me when we first moved here some 30 years ago. The risk is NOT tornados as the likelihood of a given sq mile being hit is once every 400 years. Rather, it is ice storms and those don't excite people like a whirling tornado.

Took a lot of photos yesterday. Now I will get daughter to help me transfer them from phone to computer and then from computer to here. Had to laugh as the first photos have green leaves on the trees!

Steve

Trusses are not typically required. Panels can be side joined using several different methods, include 2by or wood I-beam. This style of construction uses a load carry center ridge beam, typically something like a 4x12 glu-lam.

True !
Good idea in an area the is subject to high winds !



What I always want to know is how do the carpenters shoot those long screws perpendicular to the roof deck in 2 planes ?

Old wizard,


I too was amazed that ~ 2000 9 inch crews were used to screw down the 7 inch roof SIP panels into the trusses and only three missed the trusses! And those only by 1/8 th inch. They struck a chalk line on the roof decking as they put up the panels, but they were careful to drive in the screws exactly perpendicular in both directions.

This is where I had help from a contractor that, before this job, had never used SIPS. He was amazed at the strength, quickness of putting it up and how straight and true everything was. He says he will not ever build a "stick" wall again.

Forgot who asked, but this 5/8 inch oriented strand board (OSB) on either side of the SIPS is not the stuff you get at big box stores. Rather, it is far more stable in the presence of water and actually can be left out in open conditions (rain, snow, etc) for 6 months with no degradation. It looks like a resin or something is in it.


Steve

Big benefits !
You may have mentioned it, but I will ask again.

How were the wall sections connected ?

Some designs use standard 2by for the spline, some use OSB strips that just slip in a slot just behind the inner and outer OSB (no cold spot from the 2by).

Wizard,

There are many ways to connect the SIPS together. I choose to use 2x4 wood "splines" realizing that this allows some BTU pass through.


Steve

I am in favor of 2by "splines" also. :thumbup:

iPhone 6 - fancy $ ,with its bigger screen for reading etc. although I am frightened to look at the Price of one.. its a 'big' improvement.

Tornado in Arcadia (my home town) yesterday! Even in December, Oklahoma can have tornados. It was small F0 and touched down briefly about 6 miles south of my farm. The tv weather people were overjoyed!

The vast majority of Oklahoma tornados are in the weak to moderate category (F0- F3). It is the super ones F5 that hit Moore OK that appropriately make news. The key is to build to minimize roof lift, prevent corner racking, and to hold down the structure on the foundation plate. Metal roof to minimize hail and you are set to withstand much of what mother nature throws you.

A bit of help here. I now have e-mail on my phone and have many pictures of the shop on that phone. But I can't seem to send those pictures to myself on the desktop (sending a message to the same e-mail address). Can someone send me a PM on this?

Feeling rather stupid, but my daughter could not even figure this out!


Steve

Steve,

Do you have a phone charger that plugs into a little cube? That little cube then plugs into the wall? Well that charger line can go from your phone to you desktop. Get your charger, take off the little cube that plugs into the wall and use that line to hook your phone to your computer.

See if that works.

Austin

Send your daughter an email with pictures attached. then she can just forward it back to you. Or like so many other things apple, you can send the pictures to your cloud storage.

The shop, built with SIPS did very well over the winter. The minimum temp, with no supplementary heating was 41F (according to wife). This is likely due to the paver floor (large thermal mass), ground temp of about 61F, very low air infiltration and high wall/roof R values.

Next project is to put on about 10kW of PV panels. Shop is oriented due solar south with roof pitch of 3/12 (14 degrees). Not an ideal pitch, but changing it to maximize yearly power production was only ~ 2%.

Here in Oklahoma, we are a split state with approximately equal summer and winter degree days. We use geothermal systems so we use a lot of winter kWhrs. The local electric coop does a yearly roll over on the anniversary of the install, so any unused kWhrs get lost. Net metering is all I have so I will not be putting in a system to do 100%, but about 50% for now.

Been gone for a few months on job with very limited internet so it is good to be back with a 3M download.

Just in time for mud season!

Steve

While 41F is not really "comfortable", it is impressive given that you have no supplemental heat !

Just got a private e-mail suggesting that I do "pitch up" the PV panels as it markedly increases air circulation under/around them. By pitching the top part up, just a few inches, hot air exhausts. I am planing three rows of panels so this thought may well have merit.

It was suggested that I put in an extra block under the rail that is at the top part of each panel row. I assume this would be at the bottom of the "L" bracket that fastens to the metal roof and is lag bolted to the roof trusses.

I do know that heat is a major negative for PV panel kW generation.

Pinball, Robaroni? Thoughts?


Steve

I am not sure how you plan on mounting your panels.

I mounted mine 4” off a white metal roof with space between the rows. This lets alot of air under them.

If I have one bad microinverter I don’t have to take out a bunch of panels just replace one microinverted.
If you have the space you might thing about giving the panels some extra room.

I have compared my system to other with the same KW instlled and we seem to generate more power.
I am a good bit over my PV watt est. My panels are not at the best angle but al little off angle does not seem as important as less heat

I don't know if you want to know about panel sales but I was just emailed good 245 watt panels for .74/w