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-   -   HydroRight Dual Flush Toilet Conversion (https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1080)

gasstingy 08-27-10 07:32 AM

HydroRight Dual Flush Toilet Conversion
 
5 Attachment(s)
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1392149079

I’ve been wanting to convert to dual flush toilets for a couple of years now, but when I tried to find a replacement toilet or conversion kit for my existing toilets I had no luck. Lately, I got to looking again, and found one in the Grainger catalog. I bought it (w/tax and S&H, $32) and put it in my master bathroom toilet. It didn’t take too long to install (15 minutes +/-) and it works great. :) Of course, I took no pictures and made no keen observations to try and compare the water usage before and after the conversion. I was so pleased that I immediately bought another of the same brand, but this time I did an internet search. For about the same money, I went to Amazon(dot)com and bought another one, and so I’d get free shipping, I bought a 1.5 gpm shower head at the same time.

A few details about the toilets. Both are American Standard, kind of an old fashioned look with the flush handle on the side, not in front. But the box said it fits ANY toilet, so I figured I could justify getting my money back if it didn’t fit mine. Got it and you’ll note in the pictures, the flush isn’t by a lever operated handle, but a cable operated push button. This toilet had an old style refill valve with the long arm and big float ball to stop the water. That had to be replaced in order to do the conversion as the arm & ball won't clear the biggest part of the kit. I didn’t bother showing pictures of how that’s done. The big parts are shown, and the biggest part uncouples into two pieces for easier installation. All told, I couldn’t even do the second one in ten minutes like the instructions say it should take. Probably not their fault, everything takes me a bit longer. Of course, I could blame it on stopping to take notes and pictures, and time the operation and swap the refill valve, etc. All told, I did all of that and finished in just under a half hour.

As for the keen observations to try and show how much water I’m going to save, I tried the old and new refill valves before converting to the dual flush and it took 55 seconds for the toilet to refill from the time I pushed the flush lever. Then I swapped to the new dual flush mechanism and tried again with the biggest flush. It took the same 55 seconds. Then, I decided to relocate that little tube that goes into the stand pipe to refill the toilet bowl. Instead of shooting into the pipe, I turned the clip around and it shoots down the outside of the pipe. The toilet bowl doesn’t get quite as much water, but it still gets plenty. New refill time, 40 seconds for the long flush. Refill time for the short flush is 18 seconds. I only timed the short flush with the toilet bowl refill tube on the outside of the stand pipe though. So there it is. The water ran 73% as long on the long flush, so about a 27% water savings on the big flush from relocating the bowl refill tube to fill the tank faster instead of wasting it in the bowl. For a short flush, it ran 33% as long, so we’ll save about 67% of the water compared to before when we choose the short flush. :D

The side benefit is that I’ve tried nearly every flapper in town to get both toilets to quit seeping water out, to no avail. This stopped the seepage, so all of that wasted water is halted as well. As for the 1.5 gpm shower head that I bought at the same time, I tried it out this morning and I like it. The spray pattern is good and the pressure is good. It's going to take time to get used to using the little button that reduces the flow to a dribble while I lather up. This shower head should lighten the load on my septic tank and hot water heater.

BlueSource HYR270 HydroRight Drop-in Dual Flush Converter by MJSI


http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1392149079

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1392149079

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1392149079

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1392149079

Daox 08-27-10 07:39 AM

Nice review. The price is great on that kit too, I might have to get a couple for my house!

BTW, what shower head did you buy?

gasstingy 08-27-10 08:05 AM

I bought the conversion kit {$20.70} and "Ultra Saver Showerhead" {$12.25} from ProMax Commerce on Amazon. I liked that the shower head was all metal and Made in USA. The only thing that might take you back a bit is its size. It is barely bigger than the pipe that it attaches to. It looks so strange there compared to the big fat 2.5 gpm one I replaced. It operates fine though.

Daox 09-03-10 06:27 AM

Well, I ordered two of the HydroRight drop-in dual flush converters. I'm hoping they actually arrive this afternoon so I can install them this weekend. I couldn't pass up on the $20 price. Last time I looked at dual flush conversion kits they were around $40.

gasstingy 09-03-10 07:01 AM

I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of them. I found them to be easy to install and I am very satisfied with their performance.

Daox 09-07-10 05:51 AM

I installed one of the two conversions this weekend. Installation is pretty simple. The first one isn't a 15 minute job, but not much more as gasstingy pointed out. I'm still playing around a little bit with the adjustments on it to minimize water use as much as possible. Getting the toilet to actually flush with the #1 (small) flush is what I've been tinkering with. The full (large) flush works great and still uses less water I think. My wife really loves it as we used to do the 'if its yellow let it mellow' which sometimes creates an unpleasant odor if left too long. Now, we don't feel as bad flushing.

I plan on installing the second kit very soon. I just had a problem with the kit physically fitting in the tank. I'll get some pictures of it when I get it done.

Overall, I love it. The price is unbeatable too. This thing could very quickly pay for itself I would believe if I was paying for city water. I'd highly recommend it to anyone who does pay for city water.

Daox 09-09-10 11:40 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Well, Higgy reminded me to post this as we were talking about it today.

I installed the second HydroRight conversion on my downstairs toilet yesterday. As I mentioned, I had some problems with it fitting. The tabs on the back of the clamping mechanism were too big to fit in the tank.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1284049610



Not a real hard fix. I just chopped them off. After that, it dropped right in nice and easy.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1284049610

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1284049610



I then replaced their tiny zip tie with a longer zip tie I had. I wrapped it all the way around the clamp to hold it. The kit also comes with a rubber gasket thing to hold it in place so I added that in there.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1284049697



So, the install went pretty easy minus that little hiccup. However, the kit is not working very well on this toilet. It works amazingly well on my upstairs toilet, the quick flush (small one) has flushed down everything without any problems so far. On this toilet though, even the full flush will not flush the toilet properly. I went through all the troubleshooting tips in the instructions and will be calling the company today to see what else can be done.

Now, I have had a fair amount of problems with getting this toilet to flush properly (and not plug up) in the couple years I've had it. I believe the main problem is that this toilet doesn't have a water jet at the bottom of the bowl to help push the water/solids out the plumbing. In the picture below they call it a siphon jet. My upstairs toilet has this jet and works a ton better. If I had to guess, this would be what makes the difference.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1284050134



One last thing to add, I think the downstairs toilet is already a less than 1.6 gallons per flush toilet. It has a plastic water tank inside the porcelain tank and it seems like the volume of water in that tank is much less than in my upstairs toilet. I will probably try manually adding water to see how much one flush is on this toilet as I can't find any numbers on the toilet itself to get specs on it.

gasstingy 09-09-10 12:26 PM

I had to read that post through a couple of times and really look at the pictures to appreciate the problem you were having. {That because I'd already jumped to a wrong conclusion that I decided couldn't be right.} :o

I like your quick engineering solution, just cut them babies off! Looks like something I'd do. :D

Brad 09-10-10 04:14 PM

I'm a contractor that handles many bathroom remodel projects. Every job I install MJSI toilet products. The HydroClean valve and HydroRight dual flush kit together save my clients money on their water bill. They seem happy to know with the new look of the bathroom, the toilet also is "new" and working great. I recommend everyone should look into a dual flush converter.

Daox 09-11-10 09:38 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Okay, I finally figured it out. This morning I returned the toilet to the original setup shown below. On top of everything is plastic piece with a hole on the bottom. This is the key.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1284214714



Here is a closer look at the plastic piece. The bottom of this protrusion is open. When the tank fills with water, some water goes up into this plastic piece storing water in it. As the tank drains when you flush, that water stays in there until the water in the tank goes below the bottom of the plastic piece. At that point (the every end of the flush) you get an extra rush of water to finish the flush and push everything out of the bowl. Unfortunately, the plastic piece and HydroRight will not fit in the tank together.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1284214714


I also measured the water use of this toilet. First I turned off the water and flushed the toilet. I then filled the tank to the fill line with a gallon milk jug. It took roughly 1.1 gallons. I then allowed the tank to fill, but tubber tube used for filling the bowl into the gallon jug. It looked to fill a little under half, or .4 gallons. So, it looks like this toilet uses slightly under 1.6 gallons. I also tweaked the bowl filling rubber line to divert more water to the tank vs the bowl to save a bit more water now so it should use a little less. I'd guess I'm down to 1.4 gallons per flush roughly now. Nowhere near what the HydroRight does, but it works.

NeilBlanchard 09-11-10 08:38 PM

This is a great find, Tim! I will convert our 1.6 gallon flush American Standards, without having to replace them!

This article will be shared around my friends and family!

Patrick 09-11-10 09:19 PM

Will this unit fit an American Standard Champion 4" flush valve?

Daox 09-12-10 07:20 AM

I'll stay it depends Patrick. The rubber seal on the kit is 3 1/8" max. If the flapper valve opening is larger than this you'd have to make some other way for it to seal. At that point you may be restricting water flow which could make the toilet not flush as well.

benpope 09-13-10 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 8074)
The rubber seal on the kit is 3 1/8" max. If the flapper valve opening is larger than this you'd have to make some other way for it to seal.

Humm, I ordered one without knowing that. I have a 50+ year old toilet that I am pretty sure has the 4" valve. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Daox 09-13-10 10:31 AM

I was just at my uncle's last night and I mentioned I had the extra kit. We looked and his toilet has a 4" valve on it. I'm very sure it won't fit unless you add some silicon or and extra gasket around the sides. Of course then you have to deal with the possibly restricted flow which may or may not be a problem.

Higgy 09-27-10 09:10 AM

Ok, I'm the next victim of this dual flush operation. :) I installed my HydroRight last night on my 6 Litre American Standards toilet. Seems to be working well so far. One of the toughest things I had an issue with was taking off the old handle. I didn't realize that you had to take off the locknut or whatever in a clockwise fashion...and here I was tightening the damn thing. I eventually ripped the damn handle off cause I had tightened it so hard it wasn't loosening. Needless to say the toilet survived the encounter, although I was eyeing my hammer so it did have a brush with death. In any case, once I got it out it was a fairly simple job. Once I got the first piece on the overflow pipe it was just a little hard to get my fingers into the bowl and find room to tighten the tie. Then once it was tightened and everything was firmly in place the other part I found a bit difficult was getting the top part of the hydroright locked into place on the bottom part with the wire either hitting the overflow pipe or the edge of the tank. I finally was able to move it around it and get it into place. After that it was just adjusting the water tank level and playing with the pee and poop flow regulators. My pee one is all the way to the bottom, so it's using the most water needed to flush pee. If I put it any higher it doesn't fully flush the toilet. It just fills it up with more water. For the poop regulator, I have it all the way to the top, so it's using the least amount of water for that.

I only put it on one of our toilets so far just to see how it works. I've read good and bad reviews so I want to make sure this thing works well first. But so far it's doing well.

Daox 09-27-10 09:53 AM

Good to know Hig.

The cable was a tight on the toilet I couldn't install the kit on. I think it rubbing on the side of the tank is no problem though.

benpope 09-27-10 10:04 AM

I made the plunge a couple of weeks ago and everything went swimmingly. I have an old 3.5 gallon toilet from the 1960s and am in no mood to replace it, so the dual flush system made sense.

My toilet already had the modern style float and fill valve, but the flap and handle were worn out. Like Higgy, I had some trouble getting the handle off, but with a little torque it snapped into two pieces as it was so heavily corroded. The rest of the install went very easily. I ended up having the 3 1/4 inch opening, so no problems there.

Getting the flush setting right took me about a day of trial and error. The instruction manual was of little help in dealing with such a water hog, but I ended up setting the small flush near the bottom. I estimate my water savings at around 1/3 for the small flush vs the big flush. On both settings when I flush there ends up being very little water left in the bowl, so everything is working as it should.

The device and my fiddling with the fill valve fixed the flush problem that has been vexing me for the past couple of years. The tank was under-filling, causing there to not be enough water pressure to create the auto-siphon effect that makes everything go down the drain. Now on the big flush setting, I am using more water than I was before per flush, but I only have to flush once to get everything to go down. My overall toilet water use is going to go down.

Municipal water is cheap and plentiful where I live, so I don't expect to see much savings. I have been looking for other ways to reduce the amount of water I use with my toilet and have seen several recommendations to put something in the tank to displace water. This keeps the water pressure of the flush the same, but reduces the amount of water. I can't decide if this will be effective. As I understand it, the siphon effect depends on the water pressure in the bowl, so reducing the amount of water below a certain threshold isn't going to make it flush. I guess there is only one way to find out...

Higgy 10-07-10 08:32 AM

Anyone got an idea on how to better tighten the flusher to the tank? Mine just came undone a bit yesterday and that's only a week or so of use. I tried tightening it with my fingers but it's so thin it's hard to grab and twist.

gasstingy 10-07-10 08:56 AM

You might try using one of those rubber "lid grippers" for a bit more grip on the locknut. {The kind of thin rubber textured pieces made to loosen overtight kitchen jar lids}. If it will fit in there, you might try an adjustable wrench. But don't get carried away on the torque you use if you try the adjustable wrench. I suspect it would be very easy to overtighten.

On a slightly different note, I just got my water bill a few days ago, and it was down by about $3.00 for the month. Where it was $15 and change before the conversions and low flow shower head, it came down to $12 and change. It will take about 20 months to pay back at that rate {two dual flush kits / 1 low flow shower head / s&h ~ $60.00}.

Daox 10-07-10 06:37 PM

Wow, very impressive results gasstingy! Thats a 20% reduction!

If I recall correctly, the 'nut' has holes in it. Stick a screw driver in there and smack it sideways to tighten it down a bit more.

Higgy 01-17-11 02:59 PM

Both toilets are now dual flush in my house. The hydroright was on sale for $25 at Canadian Tire so I picked another one up. Was a breeze to install the second time around.

Daox 02-06-14 09:01 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I just saw this on amazon as I was poking around on there looking for energy conservation stuff. Its a handle kit for the hydroright dual flush conversion kit. One of the things I didn't love about the kit was that the button could be hard for a child to push. I would imagine the lever would take care of it.

BlueSource BSP38 Split Handle Flush Activator for HydroRight Drop-in Dual Flush Converter by MJSI

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1391698804

gasstingy 02-06-14 09:04 AM

Agreed on the button being hard to push for some. I'll look into this new style handle and see what I think about changing the handle in the hallway bathroom.

Quest 02-12-14 11:15 PM

Glad that you folks have been having fun (and decent results) RE: hydroright dual flush toilet conversion.

I'm assuming that you folks are all dealing/playing with 13L flush? ( 4 US Gal)? I own a few of these hydroright dual-flush conversion units, with one currently still in use @ my parent's house. Here in Canada for 13L flush units, we typically have Crane. My experience with dual-flush conversion is that it doesn't flush very well (ended up using the full flush 1/2 of the time), and due to poor rim wash (with 1/2 flush button), it tends to stain up the bowl level below the water line fairly quickly (ended up using chemical toilet scrub almost every week as a result) and smells too.

Due to construction code, my house initially came with 13L Eljer also (3x), and none of the conversions work out properly (same results: need frequent rim scrub due to staining when using 1/2 flush function, not flushing properly for the 1/2 flush part, etc.)

Worse yet: my Eljers have a tendency to clog (and then overflow), which leads to all sorts of problems.

I finally cut to the chase and replaced all 3 of them with Foremost Opal 6L flush, and no more flushing or staining issues. Opal is rated Map @1000gms, and I have yet to clog any one of my 3 yet. Also: they already came with ultra high-gloss glaze on the toilet rim part, and with sufficient rim wash in every flush, I only need to scrub the toilet bowl (due to water line stains, not that smelly/funky full staining with the dual conversion setup on 13L units)once a month.

Because my municipality charges waste discharge (garbage collection, recycling collection, greenbin collection, as well as waste water treatment fee, etc.) based on a fixed percentage of fresh water usage (yes, we are on water meter here), and I've been able to save around 38% over the old 13L flush toilets with my 6L units....and from that day onwards: I've been able to start saving from water consumption and put that savings back into my family coffer to recoup the cost of the 6L toilets.

Oh well, just thought to share my experience RE: dual conversion flush.

Quest

Daox 02-13-14 07:21 AM

The one I'm using is on my 1.5 gpf / 6lpf toilet and it works great. I don't know the brand off hand. As I mentioned in an earlier post I couldn't install it on my other 1.5 gpf toilet because of its weird flushing mechanism.

Quest 02-13-14 09:57 PM

@Daox:

Is that the one with an inside rectangular tub that holds water until you flip the level switch and the tub dumps water ? I think it's made by Niagara Conservation.

I initially had my eyes on them too but missed the municipality rebate deadline and missed the entire deal (gets 200 bux rebate back for 2 toilet units, ended up each unit costing approx 48 bux...or something like that).

Q.

Daox 02-17-14 10:07 AM

No, this is just an american standard toilet or something.

pinballlooking 02-17-14 10:44 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I am going to get one of these today. Home Depot has it with the new flush handle. For $19.98


BlueSource HydroRight Dual Flush Converter-HYR271 at The Home Depot

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...b6107_1000-jpg

pinballlooking 02-18-14 08:20 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Ok nothing is ever easy. The flush valve is a few inches off the bottom of the tank. This puts everything above the tank. The flush handle square will not fit flush with the tank the tank hole needs widened some.

I bought a new shorter flush valve but I will have to take the tank off to do this. This job may have to wait until the weekend.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...218_090805-jpg

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...218_090812-jpg

pinballlooking 02-18-14 01:10 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I found a place that has 3 dual flush kits. All my other toilets have 3 flush valves.
Water Saver
Has anyone tried these?

I ordered one of these today I will review it once I have it installed.

pinballlooking 02-18-14 08:31 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I installed the new flush valve that was a normal height. It will now let me put the lid on the back again.

I also ran a flat blade screwdriver roughly around the flush handle hole a few times. This made the new handle flush and fit nicely.

It is working now I just have to give it some time to see if I have to do more adjustment.
I work from home so this gets flushed more than a normal so this will really save some water.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...218_212240-jpg

Daox 02-19-14 08:30 AM

Looks good. Let us know how you like it after a couple days.

pinballlooking 02-20-14 09:34 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This is one of those why did I not do this a long time ago. I have it adjusted just right now. The flush works great and gets the job done every time. The double handle looks good and is easy to use.
I have the 3” version coming for the kid’s bathroom if I like that one I will get one for the bath.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...220_101924-jpg

Daox 02-20-14 09:37 AM

That is great. I love finding those kind of things. :)

Its kind of like the showerhead I just installed at my future in law's house. They had a 2.5 gpm showerhead and I just replaced it with a Niagara Conservation 1.5 gpm handheld one. I didn't ask, I just changed it out. They love it because it actually works better, AND they're using 40% less hot water now. The showerhead will pay for itself within the first month of use even. Its a win win thing.

pinballlooking 02-20-14 09:50 AM

I will look at my water bill once I am all done. Low flow shower heads the intelligent hot water circulation system and the flush toilets should add up each month. I am on a septic system so it never hurts to put less through that system.

I like saving water a precious resource.

Daox 02-27-14 08:04 AM

1 Attachment(s)
For those just wanting to order the dual flush kit with levers vs buttons, here is the amazon link:

BlueSource HydroRight Dual Flush Converter HYR271

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1393509876

pinballlooking 02-27-14 09:19 AM

Yes that is the same one I bought from Home depot for $19.98 ours had it in stock.
BlueSource HydroRight Dual Flush Converter-HYR271 at The Home Depot

I really like this handle I only wish they would make this kit for a 3” valve.

Home Depot also just carries just the new handle. $8.97
http://www.homedepot.com/p/HydroRigh...-203533630-_-N

natethebrown 07-09-14 10:49 AM

I hate to be negative but I am about to return my Dual Flush Converter.

HydroRight Dual Flush Converter-HYR271 at The Home Depot

I am getting tired of trying to adjust it to get it to seal properly. I can still hear the tank refill once every 10 minutes. If it is going to be that difficult to seal initially, I don't even want to know what it is going to be like in 5 years. Also, like others, I cannot seem get enough water to make the "small" flush actually fully flush the toilet. Perhaps I will revisit something like this in the future but, for right now, I prefer reliability and hassle free over savings.

pinballlooking 07-09-14 11:05 AM

The HydroRight Dual Flush Converter is just a very good product. I have had no issues with it at all.
Is yours ruff where it seals?

I bought two Water Saver for a 3” valve and the handles are really bad .
I have had HydroRight Dual Flush longer and the handle flushes exactly the same as it did day one but the water savers have been getting worse as they get older.


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