Help me make a important AC Choice.
 

I live in Phoenix AZ. Of course it's hot here. I am getting quotes. AC is overwhelming. I am really looking for bang for the buck. Like everyone, I realize there may be a law of diminishing returns regarding spending a lot.

Something else I have thought about and wanted to kick around with others with perhaps some more experience than I. It's hard to put into words, but is there an AC system that is like a 350 chevy? The last guy here is talking about units with dual speed compressors and variable speed fans. That sounds like something is good, but could break down easy. Am I worrying too much? Here are the latest choices. I'd like to hear what others thoughts are on this.

$5,978.00 / 3.5 TON HEAT PUMP SYSTEM RUNTRU
SEER -14, EER -11.5, AHRI #204599950, PAINTED, GALVANIZED STEEL CABINETS THAT RESIST RUST AND STAND UP TO ALL WEATHER CONDITIONS, COMPACT DESIGN AND SMALL FOOTPRINT ARE IDEAL FOR HOMEOWNERS WITH LIMITED YARD SPACE, UNITS OPERATE QUIETLY, WITH A MAXIMUM SOUND LEVEL OF 76 DECIBELS, 24V LOW VOLTAGE CONTROL PROVIDES ADDED SAFETY - SYSTEM INCLUDES A BASIC THERMOSTAT
Condenser dimensions 25H x 24W x 24D
AIR HANDLER DIMENSIONS : 46.5"H X 19.63"W X 21.63"
WARRANTY:
10 YEARS COMPRESSOR & COILS
5 YEARS PARTS
2 YEARS LABOR
2 YEARS MAINTENANCE

$6,628.93 / 3.5 TON SPLIT SYSTEM HEAT PUMP XR14 (ECM)
SEER -14, EER -11.5, AHRI # 8908429 - Every Trane Heat Pump is packed with high-quality components. Each helps ensure that time after time, your unit will provide total comfort your family can rely on. The XR14 electric heat pump includes:Climatuff compressors/Galvanized-steel louvered panels/Baked-on powder paint/Spine Fin outdoor coil. The TEM4 air handler includes:Standard convertible line/Galvanized steel cabinet/Optional electric heat/All-aluminum coil/No-rust polymer drain pan
Warranty:
10 years Compressor
10 years Parts
2 years Labor
2 Years Maintenance
Dimensions:29H x 37W x 34D
AH: 51.4H x 23.5W x 21D

$8,268.68 / 3.5 TON SPLIT SYSTEM HEAT PUMP XR16
SEER -16, EER -13, AHRI # 7563302 - High performance, excellent reliability and superior energy efficiency - that's what you can expect from the XR family of heat pumps. The XR16 includes: Climatuff compressor/Galvanized-steel louvered panels/Baked-on powder paint/Corrosion-resistant Weatherguard fasteners/Spine Fin outdoor coil/DuraTuff rust-proof basepan. Trane TEM6 air handlers offer a variable speed motor and Comfort-R technology for reliable comfort and efficiency, like only a Trane can.
Warranty:
10 years Compressor
10 years Parts
5 years Labor
2 Years Maintenance
Dimensions:
Cond: 45H x 37W x 34D,
AH: 51.3 x 23.5W x 21D

Description Total
Replace central air conditioning unit $6,850.00
Quote to replace existing central air conditioning unit, split system out side unit is located on north
east corner of the house , indoor unit is located by car garage acces area
New unit model 48gh4042g1000a brand American standard
14 seer
Subtotal $6,850.00
Arizona $568.55
Total $7,418.55

All of those look way overpriced, research the DIY route. Most likely will end up way cheaper even after factoring in the costs of tools and time.

For a beginner, a single speed unit with a TXV would be the easiest to get working well. Don't cheap out going with a capillary tube - they're not that much cheaper but are less efficient and a lot more sensitive to exact refrigerant charge levels.

For an efficiency boost, the easiest and most cost effective would be to add an evaporative subcooler - an extra coil attached to an evaporative cooler would do. Place that near a window so it would be easy to get the option of cooling with the evaporative cooler directly.

Interesting suggestions, but DIY is not an option. I am unable to get in the attic without dying and it is a split system. These are the installed prices, but I was unaware they are that out of line. Thanks! Anyone else? Also, did I post in the correct section? Mods feel free to move me if I am breaking a forum rule.

Have you considered mini splits in order to not need to do any work in the attic? Some don't even need special tools to install.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLUplfOzjwI

Yeh.... not what I am looking for, but thanks for the reply!

This is a DIY site so the suggestions will be saving some money and DIY.
Here I had no experience with HVAC and I installed 3 single head and one two head units.
https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3269
You should consider it big savings!

You asked the question, but it seems like you came here with an answer already in mind. Air conditioners exist that use less than half of the electricity that the US government's 13 SEER requirement uses, allow you to cool areas that specifically need separately as opposed to everything or nothing with a system where its loudest part is quieter than a refrigerator, they are close to silent. You also mentioned the challenge of digging around in the attic to do this too. If you install ductwork in the attic in Arizona, you are asking for a huge efficiency deficit to the installed system. It seems to me that the most inefficient and badly installed air conditioning systems end up in the places where those mistakes cost the most due to the climate. I'm surprised people want to stick with the status quo in the southern US, but you've come as an example. What sort of answer were you looking for? One that validates what you expected to hear?

My opinion on your quotes. Even in Minnesota, people are encouraged to put in a 16 SEER system and our cooling load is small compared to Arizona. The difference in equipment cost shouldn't be more than $1000 difference between 14 and 16 SEER. Perhaps keep getting quotes. I'd personally aim for 16 SEER as my minimum when it comes time for me to replace my unit and I live in Minnesota. Trane and American Standard are two brands under the same company, perhaps look for a different brand. Carrier/Bryant usually has good installers. The low-ball installers usually install Goodman equipment. Here I could get both a Bryant condensing furnace(the expensive one with two-pipe install) and a 16 SEER AC installed for the same ballpark prices you are getting quotes for.

You asked about something simple like a Chevy 350 . The higher the efficiency / SEER number , the more expensive technology it will have .

On the other hand , being in Phoenix AZ , you will have more running hours than , maybe , some one up north . So , a high SEER unit will save you more money , faster .

These are heat pumps . In Phoenix AZ, do you need a heat pump ? Any heat at all ? If you can go to simple A/C , it will be cheaper , simpler and some what less expensive parts to replace .

I too was going to suggest a mini-split , but you said no .

Best of luck ! :-)
Wyr
God bless

Thanks guys for the replies! Yes, I was not looking for a DIY option. I AM looking for opinions on the quotes I posted. Believe it or not... these were the cheaper quotes. I have had several in the 12000 range. Also opinions about the units themselves

I do not know a lot about AC systems and companies. My current unit is original to this house from 1997. There are two power companies here, and I am with the most expensive one.(tangent warning)I have had a few friends with units that have a ton of features and they end up having to replace expensive circuit boards in the heat of the summer when they are basically held at gunpoint by the repair companies. My buddy has a simple capacitor replaced in Feb, an the company that diagnosed his issue told him in the summer the repair would be 3 times as much. That is how a lot of these companies do business, but even the suppliers do it to the installers, so who is to blame.

I was not looking for someone to take me to task, just ask for guidance in an area I am unfamiliar with. I know it's frustrating when someone asks for advice and they don't immediately take it. A DYI mini split is just not possible for me. None of the installers have mentioned mini splits but I will get at least one quote on them this week, thanks for that option. It is just not common in homes here. I have seen it in a few businesses but not in a home. It's not that common here in Phoenix, anyone know why?

Thanks guys for the opinions and taking the time to answer, I really appreciate your input.

I'm in Texas. I've upgraded/replaced central systems in two houses now. In both cases, the electricity savings were right in line with the SEER rating upgrade. The old house's system paid for itself in electric savings in about 7 years, and the new one is on track to do the same. In my experience, you will not regret stepping up to the higher efficiency. I highly recommend it.

This is me paying the retail price to have someone else install. I'll diy lots of things but not AC. Your price quotes sound a little high. That's around what my quotes were for a 5 ton unit. I'd shop around a little more.

Maytag split system
 

You commented on reliability, so I thought I'd throw this out there.

In early July 2013, after getting a home energy audit, I was told to add 5" of insulation in my attic and I would be good to drop from our oversized 3 ton unit to a 2 ton split system. Without the extra insulation, I would need a 2.5 ton unit. Ten inches of insulation later (if 5" is good, 10" must be better) our SEER 19 variable speed compressor, variable speed blower motor split system was installed. The HSPF is over 10, but I don't remember the exact figure. About a month ago, we had our first problem with the unit. It was trying to kick on, but didn't do it as normal. After a few tries, it kicked on at a higher power setting than normal. The repairman came and checked it, finding the blower motor inside was bad. He said the odd noises we heard while it tried to kick on was the control unit sending the start pulse to the blower and then pausing when the blower didn't start. He said it was a fail-safe of sorts to protect the unit. We paid under $200.00 for the entire test and blower motor replacement.

We are well pleased with this HVAC unit. {BTW, our indoor half of the split system is installed over our attached garage and the duct work is in our attic. }

I have no experience replacing a variable speed indoor fan motor . However , from what I read on the internet , you came out smelling like a rose !

Be sure to treat that HVAC technician like a king and ask for him / her personally if you have any more repair calls . :-)

Wyr
God bless

Good Advice. I have a company coming today and I am going to talk about mini spit replacement specifically with them.

We DIY installed 2 mini-splits . Both unknown brands .

But I read many traditional HVAC contractors are not too hot on mini-splits . So , do not be reluctant to ask the contractors about . If they are not interested , do not wast your time with them . Call a different contractor .

Remember , just about all the mini-splits are made in Asia , regardless of brand name .

As far as HVAC in general , I read the quality of the installers work is more important than the brand of the equipment .

No matter which brand / type of equipment you purchase , the higher the SEER , the more money in energy you should save . But the more expensive the equipment is to purchase and repair ( if needed ) .

On the other hand , as I mentioned , you are located in a spot where you will have many hours of run time , giving faster pay back on higher SEER equipment .

Best of luck to you , :-)
Wyr
God bless

@wyr

Do you know why the contractors aren't hip to the mini split?

And to the comment on their work. I don't think I would know if there work were sloppy or not. As a layman, it's hard to tell, so even internet reviews are tuff to go by. I agree though. I have a friend who is a low voltage contractor and his work is higher quality than even a finish carpenter would care about. All his work is behind your wall though so no one knows.

A few guesses ;

A - Do not want to change their product line or their way of doing business .

B - Higher profit margin with their standard product line .

C - Just unfamiliar with mini-splits .

D - Resent the DIY'ers , like myself ( taking business away from them ) .

E - Fact that most / all the equipment is made in Asia . Scarcity of replacement parts .

We have an account at work with a few HVAC supply companies . So , I purchased pretty much for wholesale . But you can order equipment off the internet very competitively .

I pretty much have the tooling & I took the online test to get the entry EPA card . So , I can purchase refrigerant if the need arises .

Should you get a mini-split , the heat pump is very little more money than straight A/C , although straight A/C is a little simpler .

Our heat pump / mini-splits heat OK down to an outdoor temperature af at least 25F .

Best of luck , :-)
Wyr
God bless

@WyrTwister

Thank you , I appreciate the information.

In case anyone is watching the thread, I have inquired with 3 contractors about the mini split. They all independently recommend against it. They all talked about having to run refrigerant lines anew. I would require 2 ground units to run all the "fans" I would need. And that would only put one in our family/livingroom/dining room. Some of it sounded legit and some didn't. I myself could see pros and cons to both. I am going to go with the same type of system I have, but appreciate the input from everyone. Maybe the next time I change my air it will be all the rage.

Up to 4 indoor units can be run from one outdoor unit .

Yes , needs refrigeration lines to each indoor units .

Wyr
God bless

So, another update. I am going with the 16 seer trane. It is 8300. I hope it pays off. Nervous and excited at the same time.

$ 8300 ?

What size / tons ?

DIY ?

Wyr
God bless

That is 3.5 tons 16 seer. Trane. No not DIY.

$ 8300 ?

God bless
Wyr

Yes in deed. I was concerned with the quotes, and this was the first guy that quoted me. I could have got a great deal on york. I could have got the same size unit about 1000 less. I just wanted to stick with trane. One of the main reasons is the reviews I've read say that the York units can be noisy. Our home is so poorly built that I was afraid the noise would get to me. I have had enough quotes to know that this one isn't out of line. I have had one quote that 15k for the same size unit. I didn't go with the cheapest, but with the best company. They have contractor licenses back to 1996. Good yelp and BBB reviews. They do everything on my schedule and their communication has been good. And now the owner can make his Yacht payment :thumbup:

Called the company. There were going to include a wifi thermostat that was at least 5 years old. We all know in tech that is ancient. I called and asked if they would put in an ecobee and they agreed, no up-charge. I am happy with that.

Have the unit installed. Very happy with the install and I am now ready to learn to use my ecobee. The unit is huge, twice the size of my old unit. It is working well and cooling the house. I think that is what it is supposed to do.

PS. There is no way I could have installed this myself. But I have been working on sealing up the house to make it more efficient. I will update as soon as I can.

Well if you don't have a Ecobee, I suggest you get one... or get whatever wifi thermostat you prefer.

I have set up a schedule that coincides with my utility companies '3 CARD MONTY" type of rates. Don't believe me... check out this page, it will make your mind boggle.

Aps Plans

My biggest complaint is that it does not allow me to make the AC go on at specific times. I can set temp requirements for an Hour time block, but not say, run for 10 minutes starting at 4 pm. My power rates go up at 3 pm so I cool to 75 from 2pm to 3pm and then at 3pm, I set it for 82 degrees.

What I have found is it give you a lot of data in a CSV file. I have discovered that the hours between 3 and 8pm my ac is on for an average of 55 minutes each day. I would like it to shut off at 3 and then run for 11 minutes each hour. I usually stays off until after 6. I am losing about 1 degree per half hour. I think the temp would be better maintained if I could control it with a timer. I am going to look into something with IFTT. All in all, I like the control the Ecobee is giving me.

This may be my last post to this thread. Not a lot of lurking going on now.... If you ARE still reading then here is the update. Got my first bill. Temps have been up to 110 this month. Our bill was 83 bucks less than last month. I call that significant. I am very diligent about the hours of 3pm to 8pm. If you saw my energy monitor thread you are aware of why. We are even cheaper than just Last month!

Attachment 9011

First of all , congratulations on the new mini split ! :-)

I am guessing your unit has an inverter drive variable speed compressor ? These have the ability to slow down as the unit approaches set point and run at a reduced speed / power draw . They only shut off if their minimum speed still provides moor cooling / heating than requited to maintain set point .

If you see it running , it does not mean it is drawing full load current .

I would like to caution everyone not to short cycle any HVAC equipment . Let the thermostat do its thing .

Enjoy !

God bless
Wyr

I performed an interesting test this weekend. The temps this weekend were practically identical and my electrical rates are the same on the weekends.

Saturday set thermostat to 78 degrees. It ran for a total of 533 minutes.
Sunday set thermostat to 77 degrees. It ran for a total of 663 minutes.

What a difference a day makes..... and 1 degree.