buying an 1983 fix it up house
 

Time to start a new thread...

I am buying a signal owner 1953, 950 SF single story hip roof house as soon as the paperwork gets done (several weeks).

Issues with the home:
A. 7 of 11 windows are original signal pane. the other 4 are 5-15 yr old vinyl
B. ceiling only has R19 fiberglass batts :(
C. two year old 80% NG Forced air furnace.
D. Need to get a new washer/ dryer.- should I go gas or electric?
E. Craw space with marginal room to get into.
F. Leaky roof around non flashed chimney (high on the fix it list)
G. old electrical wires but new outlets (non grounded) and new service.
H. Lack of lighting in home- I was thinking of using the attic space to put in Can lights (short ceilings), I was thinking about going with LED's. Any ideas on good ones?
I. Block walls with limited insulation on the outside under aluminum siding.
J. Lack of roof venting

Some things I want to fix or upgrade before moving in. Electric, lighting, paint. Things I might have cash for right away: Windows (need good ideas for windows), insulation for attic, new floors.

What are your ideas for cheep (but paying for the right way) of fixing some of these issues?

other ideas pending cost and payback:
solar water heater?
Solar heat?

others?

I would personally fix A and B, especially B instead of replacing C. Insulation and air sealing will take your money much farther than replacing the furnace for 10% more efficiency.

true. I was more mentioning it then planning on changing it. I may at some point want to add AC or an outdoor wood burner. but I agree that fixing the losses first is best.

Please post some pictures and a floor plan and we'll get busy spending your money and giving you work to do.

;)

Congrats on the new (to you) house!

Tim

I can get some pics and a sketch of the floor plan up shortly, I have not closed so my access is limited.

I say first fix the roof. The air seal and insulate. I personally would pull the fiberglass and just fill the place with cellulose.

any good education on cellulose insulation? and how thick I would want to put it?

here are some pics:

http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/z...ics/file-3.jpg

http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/z...cs/file-32.jpg

My suggestions:
1) Make the roof leakproof. Do this first.
2) New grounded wiring. Try to eliminate as much attic wire as possible. One switched light in each room high on the wall above the switch. Use floor lamps for additional lighting. Or do as I did and put track lighting in the kitchen and living room (with CFL bulbs).
3) Pull up attic batts, air seal every crack and hole you can find. Put batts back, then blow in another two feet of insulation on top. I would not trust even an insulation rated can light under that much insulation. If the ceiling is properly air sealed, you should not need roof ventilation. Look up in the attic immediately after a big cold spell. If no visible frost, you should be good. Don't forget to insulate and air seal the attic access hatch.
4) Washer and dryer. The spin speed of the washer controls the moisture content of the clothes, so put some money into a good washer. It's far cheaper to spin water out than to dry it out.
5) If you dig around the outside of the house and put 2 inches of foam insulation against the crawlspace walls, your crawlspace and floor will be warmer.
6) Then, someday, rip off the siding, add 4 inches of foam and modern energy efficient windows in one big expensive project. Until then, put 3M window film on the single pane windows.
7) For crawl space work, look for a small skinny high school kid who wants to make a few bucks.

In my opinion you should begin with the thought in mind that you want to do everything possible to prevent the heat you have from escaping. This begins with preventing infiltration. This should be a major effort to find every crack and leak... and to keep tracking and sealing and filling. Next comes finding and installing the very best insulation you can muster, and as much of it as you can possibly fit in.

This will also include improving windows, and you probably live in an area where triple glass windows will have a big pay-off. There have been some really good discussions on EcoRenovator regarding factory-made high performance windows, and home-made performance improvements to existing windows. I'm sure that if you read through these discussions, you'll find the option that best fits your needs.

Remember, insulation keeps working, day and night, summer and winter, 24 hours a day, and it never needs a service call.

If you look at insulation as a financial investment, it is ultra low risk, it definitely has a positive return (in terms of reduced expenses) which is more than you can say for the finance industry's offerings, and you can count on the fact that your returns will continue to improve in the future.

Only after you have tackled the heat-retention phase should you consider solar, or other energy efficient heating options. A big reason for this is that once you reduce your heat loss, your heating needs become far less... and the low heat-density (also cheaper) heating options become a possibility.

As you consider solar, bear in mind that large tree(s) planted on the sunny side of your house can save you $$$ in air conditioning costs.

I would advise against using can lights, because unless you get air-tight cans (at extra cost) each one is a route for air and heat to leak out. Putting in can lights limits your flexibility as to how you want to live in your house and where the proper lighting should be. Recessed lighting was developed in the 30's, when it was cutting edge, but the can light look is getting 'dated' and in my opinion, it never really looked all that great, anyway. I have a buddy that is putting in scores of those things in his house, but this is the third wave of his never ending remodel. 'Never ending', because none of the remods have been well thought out.

I like the idea of a wall light near a room entry switch, but I think that room lighting should come from wall lamps or table lamps or an occasional hanging lamp. This gives you maximum flexibility at minimum cost, and easily allows for technical advancements in lighting... after all, LED ighting may not be the last chapter in lighting efficiency.

Plan for two kinds of lighting, fill lighting and task lighting. fill lighting could be a table or wall lamp that gives off diffused light to illuminate the extent of the room, it doesn't need to be so bright. This can be done with light bounced off the ceiling, or with wall lamps or hanging lamps, or table lamps all of which would have translucent shades. Right now, CFLs are the best for this. They are cheap, they come in a large variety of shapes and brightness, and they are, lumen for lumen, more energy efficient than LEDs. Then there are task lights, where you need to see what you are doing... they should be direct light, with high contrast and as bright as your eyes need them to be. So here, LEDs are good performers and also halogen lights, which have better color rendition, but are not good energy performers.

Block wall, huh? This is probably a real thermal leaker right now. I think that the previous post that suggested a rigid foam exterior house wrap is a very good idea. You'd want to use XPS because it is non-hydroscopic (doesn't absorb moisture).You have sufficient overhang to make it work.

If you did wrap and seal the house in foam, you'll certainly want to insulate the inside with densely packed cellulose, as a humidity moderating measure. Fiberglass doesn't have the same ability to moderate humidity.

I use a smallish Euro-sized front-loading washing machine. It is amazing how much clothing you can pack into something that small. The tumbling action doesn't beat up clothes as badly as an agitator type, and it uses much less water. A modest additional benefit is that much less washing products are required... mine uses uses about 1/4 what a top loader would use, and washes the same amount of clothes. Get one that has a really aggressive spin cycle, as has been mentioned before, the less wet your clothes, the less drying required.

I have used a gas dryer for a very long time, and it has been a consistently reliable and thrifty performer. However, my recent work with a CO2 sensor has taught me that you need to be very careful that your venting is excellent. I would suggest that if you go with gas (this includes your furnace), you make sure that the appliances have sufficient outside air feeding their combustion, and that preferably, the envelope that they are operating in is separate (sealed) from your living space. This has all been a big eye opener for me, because of my CO2 sensor work.

I'm going to disagree here with some previous advice... A proper venting arrangement from eve-to-ridge, will really help to dump heat in the summer time, and reduce your need for air conditioning, considerably.

Don't know if you have electrical skills, but you should have grounded outlets, for your safety.

So now you're talking about ripping off all the sheet rock, and rewiring. I think that more outlets are better than fewer, I go with one duplex every 4 feet. I have also discovered how useful it is to split the duplex plugs, so that one is controllable from a wall switch, and the other is always on. You don't need this on all duplexes, but a few are a real blessing.

Best,

-AC

Unless you have walls up to around R 40 and also really tight and low U windows I can't recommend more than 18" of cellulose in an attic. If you make a pie chart of your loss and gain at R 60 an attic will be an invisible sliver compared to everything else so the ROI is nonexistent. Also I can't recommend fiberglass. That stuff is a mouse magnet. They destroy it and fill it with urine and feces. I'm beginning to wish I didn't use it in my basement. In retrospect I think I'd rather live with the lower R value than fiberglass.

Honestly the best advice I can give you is to get the house structurally sound, use more insulation than less and to do your reading. You are getting a lot of different opinions here in this thread and some of them are conflicting. Only you can satisfy yourself as to what's the best for your house. As for me personally, there has been at least one point in every post in this thread I don't agree with. Who's right? Green building has a lot of different options and facets. Not all agree on all points. Most agree that more insulation is better than less. Most agree that a structurally sound house is better than one structurally failing. Take your time. Do as much reading as you can. Wait until you're sure you know what you're doing then keep reading for another six months or so before you start your work.

Just this morning I had a man adamantly insisting that his house was perfect. It had R - 27 for a wall and an admirable 1.8 ACH50. I personally wouldn't be satisfied with either of those numbers. Especially in new construction, like his house was. Oh, and he had fiberglass in that R 27 wall.

There are some really great and relevant points in this simple article that I think everyone should read:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...ding-beginners


I wish you the best of luck. I hope you ultimately you end up with a comfortable and durable home which is reasonable cost effective to occupy.

time for a bit of an update.....

Closed on the house two weeks ago and the projects are coming fast.

I am updating the bathroom and kitchen and finding great deals on CL for cabinets and things I need. In the process of projects I have taken out three small single plane windows and found that the house is aluminum siding right on 4 hole cinder block (8") and then 2x2" strips on the walls and then 3/8" or 1/2" drywall. From what I can tell the walls are non insulated!

I am just starting the wiring upgrades and will also be re doing most if not all of the pluming (supply and drain) in the house.

What are peoples thoughts on putting plastic down on top of the dirt in the craw space?

If I decide to redo the siding I was thinking of putting 2" of ridged foam on the outside (glued to the wall). but I am not sure how to attach lap siding on top of that? Ideas that keep the wall thickens from getting huge?

Covering the crawlspace floor with plastic will reduce the amount of moisture coming up into the house. The installation does not need to be perfect, anything is better than bare dirt.

If I was insulating a concrete block house, I'd glue on at least 4 inches of XPS in two layers, then fasten furring strips or sheets of OSB on top using Tapcon screws. Then nail the siding to the furring strips or OSB.

This is also the time for new windows. The new windows should be installed flush with the foam, otherwise there is a thermal leak.

If I could afford it, I would use polyisocyanurate insulation (the foil face stuff).

What are your concerns about thick walls?

-AC

Weather Spotter,

I will try to address some of your questions and ask more to help you on your journey renovating your new home. I am not a master expert guru, but many members here are.

From this quick reference:
Ashland, WI Weather, Forecast, Temperature and Precipitation Statistics - CLRSearch
We can tell that your main concern regarding energy usage will be heating. With about 7500 heating degree days vs. 700 cooling degree days, your heating demand is roughly 10 times cooling demand. With average January lows approaching 0 degF and most likely many sub-zero nights, you will spend a boatload of money every year to heat your home, even if it is "well insulated".

What you need to be thinking of is "super insulating" your home by today's residential standards. The home-builders of today are not highly motivated in terms of energy savings after they have reached the minimum amount required to get you a government rebate. In contrast, spending an extra thousand dollars on this or that material up front, especially on extra insulation or infiltration barrier will forever change the way your house acts when it gets cold or windy. Done properly, improving your home's resistance to mother nature has the potential of murdering your utility bills for the foreseeable future.

A first step to pursue is to define what you have just purchased. I assume a decent home inspection was done prior to closing. Next, a thorough energy audit needs to be done. From these two preliminaries, you can define a baseline as to the present condition of the home. If you can contact a previous owner, they could provide a trove of historical data. Doing your homework in this area will compound itself in labor and time savings the earlier it is done. For instance, identifying a leaky, over-sized heating system or a poorly designed electrical system would dictate rework before finishing or insulating around these defects.

Concerning the siding and interior/exterior components of your envelope: it all depends on how you want it to look when it's finished. This should be integrated into your plan before you start your project. If you're not much of an architect or carpenter, that's okay. Just surf the internet and find design elements you like. Print out or save some pictures and put a folder together along with pictures of your home. Then seek advice from others with design skills.

The methods and practices of work involved are all well established and will pretty much reveal themselves once you figure out the finished product. But the surface cosmetics should have much less to bear on your project than what lies between the drywall and the siding or shingles. Like the builders say: "Drywall, paint and plastic is cheap."

With respect to lighting, most manufacturers make products that fit in with the status quo in building methods. This usually means drilling big holes in your walls or ceilings (or drop-ceilings) to install boxes or cans, because that's what contractors do well. There is a whole forum on this site devoted to eco-lighting solutions on this site with innovative solutions that do not violate your envelope and perform much better than the industry standard. Your imagination is the only barrier in this realm.

As to your space and water heating, these will be revealed once you analyze your home. If you have sufficient hot water and heat now, concentrate first on reducing your exergy leakage first. No need to spend up-front money on something that works as-is. These systems can be researched and upgraded later if need be.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I cannot over-emphasize the importance of assembling a detailed plan before you get involved in performing work. I wish you the best and look forward to your success.

Jeff

Time for another update:

Plumbing is all new. New drains from the septic tank connection to every fixture, new Pex manifolds and runs to each fixture :)

All the Electric is done (except for one bed room thats yet to be remodeled).

Two leaky widows removed (bathroom and what will be a closet), this took out 20% of windows in the house.

roof patched (minor old tar was coming off making a small leak).

Bathroom is all new!

Kitchen is all New!!!!

utility room is almost done.

Garage is cleaned out, new electric run, work benches and shelf's built....


Still working on the insulation and siding issue. After spending $1400 more then budget on the plumbing and $ 1000 over on electrical. I had to redoing the whole kitchen as some helpers went to town busting out the old cabinets and flooring so that caused more $$$$ to be spent on non energy efficiency upgrades. Now I am living in the house and have used up the fix it up budget :(

Some things I am noticing, even on hot sunny days the house does not heat up as much as I would expect for a house with no wall insulation. The attic does have ~R22 worth of insulation. If in the morning the house is 70F when I leave for work and I keep it closed up, at 5pm its only up to 74F or so. Outside temps will be in the 90+ F range and it takes over a week of these to get the house up to 80F. Is this the thermal mass effect in action? If so how well will this work in the winter?

How do I calculate U values for a wall thats aluminum siding on 8" cinder blocks with a 1.75" air gap and then a sheet of 3/8" drywall? the wall air gap is mostly blocked off to the attic and eves but not completely, some areas are wide open and with a very shallow roof pitch I cannot get within 4 feet of the wall from the attic. If I even think hard about taking the nailed on original 1953 soft off I will never get it back on :(

Ideas?

How bad would it be to take off the current siding and insulate and leave the old windows and doors on (sunk in 1-4 inches) till I could afford to replace them?

You're thinking in the right direction here. Work on the stuff that has to be done first (plumbing, electrical structural, etc.). As usual, everything with a home ends up costing more than originally planned. This is why contractors usually double their estimated cost up front, because they've been there and done that, and they can't afford to run out of money a week before completion of a project. Don't be afraid to wait if you can't afford projects yet, just make sure when you actually do them they end up like you wanted. A house is not a money pit (usually) if things are done right the first time through.

As you are observing, stone walls have a huge amount of thermal mass. This does not necessarily mean that they have high r-value, though. I believe concrete block walls have an r-value close to 1. The airspace and gypsum probably have close to the same r-value, but they have very little mass. The result is that the wall gives up and takes in lots of heat, but it takes a long time to feel the change indoors. This effect will catch up with you in the winter, right around the holiday season.

The quickest and easiest way to insulate your block walls is from within. Injecting foam into the hollow cavities inside the wall will increase the r-value to somewhere above 10, and you don't have to rip your siding off to do it. This will give you the most bang for the buck, especially if you DIY. It also will seal the block wall, killing infiltration issues. The stuff goes in like shaving cream and sets in 2 minutes. Plug up the holes you drilled and it's done.

Here is a site pitching their brand of the product.

Have you had an energy audit yet?

If not, get one now, before you start ripping your envelope up.

If so, how did you fare? This will serve as a baseline to quantify your future improvements.

What, R10?? How? This is like taking a steel building and putting cavity insulation in it, you accomplish very little in regards to insulation. You fill up the insides of the cinder blocks and then the joining parts of the concrete still have full thermal conduction. You don't gain much here. What really should happen is there should be an insulating layer on either the outside or the inside of the concrete layer to be effective.

OK, let me qualify my statement more clearly.

The OP stated he has hollow block walls with a tiny air gap and 3/8 drywall on the inside. Depending on whether it is skinny, medium, or heavy block, the r-value will fall between 1 and 2. The home is 30 years old, so there will be gaps or cracks in the block that will cause infiltration. He can't get to the top of the walls without tearing off the roof. Money is tight and winter is coming.

Yes, eventually the outer envelope should be improved upon. Wrapping the house with foamboard would take advantage of the thermal mass of the wall and eliminate the need for interior insulation. This involves tearing off siding, inspecting, repairing, insulating, wrapping, sealing, residing, and finishing. When time and money is plentiful, this project would radically reduce the home's heat load and save tons of energy. With great investment comes great gain. Oh, and don't forget the windows and doors.

Insulating the walls from within tackles more than one problem inherent in their design. Block walls are lossy not so much that concrete is a good conductor of heat, but because of the free air inside. Natural convection transfers lots of heat from the inner to the outer surface. Infiltration occurs everywhere it can, aiding this convection from both the inside and outside. Blowing foam into the cavities shuts down the convection cycle and plugs up the infiltration leaks. The worse shape the wall is in (thermally), the better it works.

MN, you are right. This is not a be all, end all solution for insulating the walls. Efficiency levels are not instantly going to become stellar. But it is a good first step that doesn't take long (1-2 days vs. weeks) or cost much ($$$$ vs. $$$$$) to accomplish. And a $400 a month heating bill is better than a $700 a month heating bill.

I'm a little confused though, I though code for pretty much everywhere as far north as Michigan would have codes that dictated at least R13(..or maybe R11?) cavity insulation for above ground walls in the 80s. Seems a little weird that this house doesn't seem to have any or at least that it isn't easy to find. My house was built in 1985 with 2x4 construction with cavity insulation that I assume is R13 and 3/4" XPS wrapped over the sheathing to help with thermal bridging. My house was part of a cookie cutter 'moderately low cost for what you get' high volume construction project. I'm halfway considering talking to the dozen plus neighbors who have the same exact house design and telling them how they can relatively easily remove the major thermal bypasses in the vertical wall section of the knee wall, sealing top plates, sill plates, penetrations, and to beef the 12" of insulation that they were told they were getting when the houses were built yet I only measure 7" in my house and that's well beyond the realm of settling.

I guess I'm trying to say is that I have a hard time with the idea that a house built in the 80s would not be insulated or that the codes didn't exist in Michigan for them to be insulated.

Did you ever get an energy audit done on the house?

No I did not get an official audit done..... but a mechanical contractor friend and I went through the house looking for issues.. I knew most of them already, old windows, leaky doors.

but I calculated that if I run my 40,000 BTU furnace constantly the gas bill can only max out at $198 a month. so if I half my energy bill in the coldest month I might save $100 and we only get 2 or 3 months that cold here so I would calculate a annual savings of $500 max per year for a reduction of 50% of usage. to get there though I figure I would have to replace all the windows and doors ($2500) and insulate the walls ($1500) and replace the siding to do the insulation ($1500). This might reduce the usage by more then 50% but the law of diminishing returns would say that 70% reduction is about all I can get. The payback of this major investment is a rather long time (7-10 years). the other issue is that I have to do it all at once so I would have to save up for a year or two to get that cash.... now I am 9-12 years out on payback. I have no idea if I will even live here that long.

how much should I invest into a 1953 home?

Sounds to me you're talking yourself out of a lot of work. Best bet is to find a buck stove (craigslist ~$300) and install it before winter sets in. Gear up with some thermal underwear, a chainsaw, and a wedge. Chop lots of wood from the forest and save tons of money on natural gas. It'll be good preparation for the work that lies ahead. Bide your time and ponder the money hog that is known as a home.

I wanted a house with a wood stove. But this house does not fit that bill can't have one due to the insurance company. there's not a really good spot to put one anyway :(

I have a chain saw, maul, wedges and lots of experience with wood heat but I will have to wait till my next place to have one. Unless I leap fog that and get/ build a net 0 home.

Ok, so throw together an outdoor wood fired boiler. With only 900 square feet to heat, you should only need one radiator.

It would be fun to try building my own outdoor boiler ...... I would need a wood supply and the cost to retrofit my forced air system might be a bit too high, but it would be a fun project...... Himmmm fire or water tube design?

9-12 year payback is still better than what you can get in aggressive stocks, especially since its guaranteed, and you're improving the value of your home, and your comfort.

Your house would be nice and toasty as it is , with a Mini-split heat pump saving money and heating your house for 30% the cost of other heating sources.

I would generally agree, but Michigan does get pretty cold for a good part of the year. He would have to have a unit that does very well in very cold weather.

I agree. I say this year, throw together an outdoor wood fired boiler out of recycled whatever, and run it to a radiator of your choosing with some insulated pipe. Save money, chop wood, and seal and insulate like crazy to maximize heat retention. Buy an IR camera or thermometer and let the hunt begin.

Later, a long-term solution could use a zone or two worth of (inverter) mini-split units placed strategically or a retrofit could be made to the central air system using a high-efficiency split ASHP. Unless the central system is in perfect shape, I would begin to plan its removal or remediation. Since natural gas is already there, it can serve as a backup on those awful cold spells when the heat pumps are not as aggressive.

Right now is a good time to get a baseline measurement on the heat load. If the furnace is the only thing that runs off gas, it's easy: just check the gas bill. If not, some accounting will need to be done as to the run time of other gas appliances.

As to the payback or ROI factor, remember that the tide is turning on eco-friendly building. People are now willing to pay more for a house that demands less heating and cooling, and that uses more durable/natural construction materials. Sometimes, considerably more (like double). So whether or not you'll live in the house forever or not, you should still aim high when doing home improvement projects.