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The units conversion is a little confusing. Let's try it this way, with known values to test:
R = t/k R: Thermal resistance t: thickness k: thermal conductivity coefficient This lists foamed plastic insulation with k=0.03 we are looking for R-value per inch, so t in meters = 1/39.37 = 0.0254 R = (0.0254 m)/(0.03 W/m*K) = 0.847 m^2*K/W to convert this SI R-value to US R-value, we multiply by 5.682 0.847 x 5.682 = US R-value of 4.81/inch of foam plastic. This appears correct. Now we just need some k-values of soil to calculate with. The same page lists dry & wet soil with a range from 0.15 to 4. This is a huge range, dependent on soil moisture. Let's first check these values, in units of US R-value per foot. thickness, t, of one foot in meters: t = 12/39.37 = 0.3048 R = t/k = (0.3048 m)/(0.15 W/mK) = 2.03 x 5.682 = 11.5 US R-value/ft, best case R = t/k = (0.3048 m)/(4 W/mK) = 0.076 x 5.682 = 0.43 US R-value/ft, worst case Can we narrow our range of likely k-values? IEEE 442-1981, Guide for Soil Thermal Resistivity Measurements See Figure 3 on page 9. The Y-axis is in units of degreeC*cm/W. We can convert to k-value = 100/y. I'm going to select two values, 200 and 80. k = 100/200 = 0.5 R = (0.3048 m)/(0.5 W/mK) = 0.61 x 5.682 = 3.47 US R-value per foot k = 100/80 = 1.25 R = (0.3048 m)/(1.25 W/mK) = 0.24 x 5.682 = 1.36 US R-value per foot Now if we look at data listed here, units of thermal conductivity in Figures 5 & 6 are in Btu/(hr ft F), the reciprocal will give us R-value per foot.. 1/0.52 = 1.92 US-R/ft for loam to 1/0.96 = 1.04 US-R/ft for saturated silt/clay to 1/1.44 = 0.7 US-R/ft for saturated sand Soil type & moisture will make or break it.. |
Hi guys I am new here and only skimmed thru some of these pages. When we built our 2100' house in 06 I put in one 400' length of 1/2" oxygen barrier tubing in the post tension slab just under the kitchen, dining and master bath with ceramic tile. The tubing is 100' too long so it has about 23' of head at 1.5 GPM. I tested it in real conditions very accurately. I overcame it with a bigger pump. I am getting about 1'3 GPM. It is working really good though. It will transfer 9K btu with 100 degree water going in and the house is at 62 degrees which is warm enough for us. It feels more like 68 in here. The floor is spotty though cause my runs are not strait enough. The floor temps run 75 to 81 wich feels good on bare feet. The tile where there is no heat will be about 57 degrees. We only used about 5 gallons of propane and that was when it was 13 below 0 with record lows here in Oklahoma the first week of Feb. I also used very little supplement from our master br water to air geothermal heat and air. We used a total of 1600 KWH in Jan. All elec except the range. And I have two saltwater aquariums. One 70 gallons and one 45. They are running at 80. They use alot of energy with bright coral growing lights. The smaller one has some insulation on it. On top of that we open the BR window at night sometimes. We like to sleep at 52 to 60 degrees. That master bath floor heat migrates into the BR and wil make it too warm. Some times we turn on the Mater only AC! Pobably 20 days in Jan. we did one or the other to keep it cool in there. Our elec is cheap here in Ok. Our bill was 117. The other two BR's are cool, they get no direct heat. Empty nesters. Videos are on YT search StriperEd08. Will add some pics later. Don't have much for the tubing before concrete pour though.
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-AC_Hacker |
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Much of the hydronic lore I have encountered, suggests that foundation insulation is a must and that insulating with foam at least under the outer portion of the heated floor is a good idea. But I think that the cost of energy really tilts the playing field even beyond that. When figuring payback, I think that it's wise to remember that energy prices are not a static thing, and that they are moving up, not down. I think it's not unrealistic to estimate that they will be moving up much faster than one might be comfortable with, especially since virtually every major oil field in the world is now in decline. Also the cost per BTU from Canadian oil sands is very much higher than from conventional oil wells. I say insulate very well, much better than you think you need, and do it now. -AC_Hacker |
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?feature=mhum
I did not isulate the edges of my slab, just unter the tubing. I do not think a whole lot of heat is lost there just by taking readings near the outer walls with IR thermometer. I had taken a video and put it on DVD but am having trouble playing it back:mad: Sure wish I would have taken some pics too! |
Radiant Precision...
I have come across references to a book called "radiant Precision" by John Siegenthaler.
It's not cheap, but it is available here. However, I did find a series of Powerpoints that are meant to accompany a CD audio lecture, and they are located here:
Lots of good info, and the price is right. -AC_Hacker |
Update to: Radiant Floor Infra-Red Photos...
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Please note that I updated this posting: Radiant Floor Infra-Red Photos... to include Thermal Imaging photo of a continuous aluminum radiant floor product called Warmboard. Although the image was made by a different photographer and with a different camera, the uniformity of the temperature gradient is apparent.
The uniformity of the temperature gradient has pronounced implications for low temperature heating systems (AKA: low exergy), such as heat pumps and solar heating. It is the average temperature of the heat source that heats the room in question and the lower the temperature gradient, the lower the required feed temperature, thus the greater the efficiency. * * * Here are some diagrams from Warmboard technical literature that illustrate some principles that I have come to understand, but are not so easy to explain. Please note that I think that company-supplied sales and technical literature should be viewed with a certain suspicion. But since these diagrams illustrate an important principle I am presenting them not to endorse a product, but to illustrate a concept. Here is a diagram from warmboard technical literature that illustrates the principle of even distribution of heat over the surfaced of a floor: The diagram implies that smaller heat differences over the surface of a floor will favor lower feed temperatures. Here is another diagram, also from Warmboard technical literature, that illustrates the impact of feed temperature on heat pump (ASHP or GSHP) efficiency (AKA: COP): When the feed temperature is lower, the heat pump doesn't need to do as much work (lower lift) and efficiency is increased. Here is a diagram used to illustrate the effects that floor coverings have on radiant floor performance, and thus feed temperature and thus efficiency. "Rv" means the thermal resistance (R-value) of the floor covering: If anyone has trouble figuring this chart out, let me know and I'll edit to clarify. And here is a general graphical summation of the above information: So am I a Warmboard fan? Not quite yet, but it is the best commercially available product of its kind I have found so far. But I think that manufacturing concerns and pricepoints, leave plenty of room for DIY folks to do even better. * * * I have also been doing some research into graphite as a heat transfer medium. I have actually come across studies that conclude that in certain cases, graphite can be a better thermal conductor than copper or aluminum. Check out this patent and also this brochure and the thermal imaging video below. Regards, -AC_Hacker * * * |
Looking at AC_Hacker's post about hydronic floors makes me wonder....
Could a DIYer just lay down sheets of copper, put 1/2" copper tubing on it, then allow the tile guys to come in and put down tile? Not sure, perhaps the tubing could be soldered to the copper plate. What I don't know is if the tile guys would work without sleepers to bring the subfloor up to the top of the tubing. Maybe that's a very naive question. Likewise the thought, could you do the opposite? Cut grooves in the subfloor and then prepare copper sheets with copper tubes soldered to them, and invert them into the grooves? Does someone make products that do this? Warmboard looks (from the brief post) like a system including a subfloor. (But the subfloor for the kitchen is in.... :-) I'm going to show AC_Hacker's post to the builder so he understands what I am trying to do. |
Copper doesn't remain the first choice for radiant floor tubing anymore. Cost and some corrosion possibilities have made PEX tubing favorite. So many soldier joints unless one used soft copper. Copper plates would require same amount of contact with piping as Alum/pex I would think. For tile top surface a rough coat would be needed to cover tubing and let dry before tiling should be done if tubing not imbedded in subfloor channels.
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Thermal Imaging photos of Radiant Flooring...
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Gary over at Build It Solar recently got a Thermal Imaging camera and he sent me some photos he took of his radiant flooring project.
He was interested to actually "see" the effect that 0.018 inch thick plates made to heat radiation patters of a hydronic floor. Comments "All the pictures are taken looking down the radiant floor -- there is an about 3/8 thick engineered lumber floor between the camera and the tubes. So, you are seeing the temperatures on top of the laminate floor with the tubes under the laminate." "The FloorLoopsNS pic #1 is just PEX tube and no heat spreader. The tags on the pictures give temperatures -- so, its 80.2F right over the tube and 75.4F between the tubes." "The other two show areas where I put the spreader plates in. It's clear that the spreader plate does carry the hotter zone out further. These are the 0.018 inch thick plates. It looks like the area between plates does drop down significantly, but when you compare it to the area well away from the tubes (the 74.6F spot), the plates apparently do help the floor to run a bit hotter even when you get beyond the plate edge." http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1299776355 (photo below is a detail of the effect of the aluminum spreader plate) http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1299776355 Huge 'Thank You' to Gary for getting a Thermal Imaging camera and sharing this information with the DIY community. We all benefit from this. Best Regards, -AC_Hacker |
Those are impressive results for those homemade plates. I'm curious to see how well his plates would work on a staple-up installation
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I found it interesting how much fall-off there was at the outer edge of the plates, which says to me that if the plates were wider, the heat transfer improvements would be greater. Gary was using plates that were 0.018" thick, I'd really like to know what 0.025" would perform like. -AC_Hacker |
In a typoed Google search of exergy heating I came across a product called 'X-energy', a liquids claims say is more efficient than water for heat transfer - alfa-x.eu - X-ENERGY. Haven't determined yet if it is suitable for hydronic heating but in theory it should. May be better for hi-temp hydro than low. Check it out.
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I don't know what kind of a tool making guy you are, but hydrolics might be the way to go for a press. One detail on Gary's page: "Wedges are placed under the plywood pieces to give the formed plates a slight down slope from groove to the outer edge." ... a really good idea, because with this detail, when the plates and tube are fastened to the floor, the aluminum plate squeezes tighter to the PEX. Good idea. Good luck with this project. Take loads of pictures and post all the details of the undertaking. Good Luck! -AC_Hacker |
Radiantec tubing
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I just thought I would share a pleasant surprise I got today -
I think it was overnight from Vermont to NJ... I described my house to a tech at Radiantec, and they did the math and recommended 3000' of their tubing - which seems to be designed to be better for radiant floors than plain Pex, and 1000' of their plates. At this time, I am doing just the addition, and if I am happy with the products, I'll order materials to do the rest of the house (the closed parts) before we paint If I have time when I go to do the second batch, I may make my own plates - to compare. I asked my builder to bring me some aluminum like he used for the termite shield - 50' x 15" - then I can use the DIY jig design I saw posted. I do have a question for AC - Am I right, you are (will be?) using your homemade HP both for heating and cooling? If so, how do you do the reversal ? Can it be done by just having a few (4? 8?) valves to make the plumbing equivalent of a crossover cable? Instead of moving heat from the ground loop to the inside loop, move it from the inside loop to the ground loop. Still requires a water pump on each side. Thanks Seth |
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Where I live, it doesn't get hot enough to really require serious air conditioning for more than maybe 10 days a year, and usually all but maybe two of those days can be handled by ventillating the house well at night and shutting it up tight during the hottest part of the day (til about 3 pm). I'm not sure if you're considering using a hydronic floor for cooling, but it is problematic because of humidity condensing on the floor. Some people use an air handler for AC and radiant floor for heating. The Europeans are using radiant cooling panels in the ceiling, which employ humidity sensors that can calculate what the dew point is and make adjustments to avoid it. But here is a diagram of a typical reversing valve set-up in a heat pump: I have been thinking about the cooling thing, however and although only ten days are hot enough to NEED air conditioning, it would be nice on quite a few days other than those ten days. In addition, from my extended test run I have done to heat my basement, I have dropped the ground temp a fair bit. It's not easy to tell how much because it's a moving target. But it is more than I would have guessed. I'll post some numbers pretty soon. So, the short part of the story is that I am considering ways to put summer heat into the ground. I'm going to do my 'reversing' on the water side of the system. Haven't got it all figured out yet... I'm also considering just running cold loop water through a radiator for cooling, as an experiment. Stay tuned.. -AC_Hacker |
"Underfloor heating" (using water, not direct electric heating) IS quite widespread in Europe, but mainly in concrete/slab/stone/tile floors, not that often in wooden floors (but it is coming also).
The system I am devising is unfortunately still is being delayed by the hybrid electric-heating solar panels not yet being available. Part of the house which has been renovated has had underfloor heating installed. The rest of the house has the original hydronic water heating as you call it (we call it radiator based central heating, or just central heating). The radiator solution has the problem that it requires a higher operating temperature, for a smaller area, than underfloor heating. So I am considering to change the remaining ground floor and entire first floor into underfloor heating. Between ground floor and first floor is a "deck" of concrete load-bearing elements. I intend to let the first floor underfloor heating have direct contact with these, as the thermal mass is huge. In most current solar power installations, the main unresolved issue is not to produce sufficient heat, but to store it. Not just from daytime to nighttime, but also from sunny days so overcast days, and in my system, even from summer and into winter (using the clay under the house for long term, high capacity lower temp storage). Heat demand and supply (especially supply) are fluctuating curves, that need to be leveled, just as you turn AC electricity into DC. Because "all we want" is really to keep the temperature constant, inside our homes, no matter what the weather is outside. I am sorry that my system is so delayed, but as soon as it is up and running, the data collected will speak for themselves. The real picture of how it works will not show until after a few years. Then I can prove that my electricity, heating and water cost will be decimated, and the seasonal heat storage will start to gain its new balance. (It takes some years to build up a reasonable temperature underground). Just as exciting as it all is, just as frustrating is it that the hybrid solar panels keep being delayed. I really hope that they can make the 12 units I ordered, within a few months, so I can finally get "the engine for my car" |
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But in solar power applications, the only desirable effect is the anti-freeze function of this liquid. The liquid heats faster (and cools faster) because it carries LESS energy. It has a lower specific heat capacity than water. Which is highly undesirable. In most installations with solar energy, you want the heat to stay as long time as possible. The more capacity, the more you are able to absorb the energy when it is there, and keep it when the supply is gone. There are possibly some industrial applications where it is an advantage, but basically this is just an anti-freeze liquid, just like glycol is. Lower heat capacity and lower freezing point. |
Random thought: It might be useful to have a liquid with a vastly lower heat capacity than water in solar installations. If you also had mechanisms to both easily mix and separate the two liquids, then you could have an intelligent controller adjust the heat capacity of the transfer fluid to optimize temperatures for given conditions.
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Hi Guys, what an excellent DIY thread:thumbup:. I wish you guys were working for me!
Just to be helpful, here are some guidelines we use that may take some of the mystery out of certain things discussed here. Hydronic–in-slab: The Do’s: 1. Use 100mm to 150mm (4” to 6”) spacing in the slab with 10 and 15mm pipes respectively. Make sure the Pipe’s bend radius is not exceeded by these numbers. 150mm (6”) thick is best for added thermal mass. 2. Make sure the pipes are at least 50mm (2”) deep in the concrete, preferably above the metal reinforcing screen 3. Make sure the pipes are suitable for direct burial in concrete and that it is designed for this type of heating purpose and that the pipe is oxygen proof. 4. Don’t ponder the antifreeze issue, if you need it, and most of us do when using a solar offset, use it - the efficiency will not materially impact on the heat transfer in a real world. Make sure pumps and pipes are OK with this additive. Don’t use Car antifreeze as the additives can be detrimental to long term usage. 5. Don’t use XPE under a slab, use HDPS (High Density polystyrene). Always use it, we use 140mm (6”) but 90mm (~4”) would be the minimum we recommend. The house will not settle on this stuff. I have seen a concrete truck drive over this stuff with hardly as dent. 6. Don’t use small diameter pipes over 100M (330’) in one go. 7. Lay the pies intelligently, don’t try to heat places that don’t need it such as under counters, under larders/pantries, but do include clothing closets. 8. Design the pipes to provide warmth to the bathroom(s) first, and in BR the warmer temps should be on the perimeter. Stay away from piping close to the outside wall by about 400mm (Just over a foot) to avoid heating the wall losses unless that spot is regularly walked upon. 9. Don’t overheat the pipes, you are generally aiming for a 30c (85f) max floor temp in an energy efficient house. More if not. No warmer than 45c (120f) or you add to long term risks. At 30c you are about the same as a warm summer day and things like wooden floor coverings rarely have issues. 10. ALLWAYS insulated the edge of the slab!. You will lose easily 30% of your heat there in sub freezing temps and much more as the temps go down. We use ICF perimeter with added HDPS to achieve 100mm of insulation – minimum. 11. Hot water heat pump for back up is a good idea. We retail a 9kW unit to our clients, good down to -15c (5c) for about USD$ 2.8k You should be able to find similar deals in your areas. This will heat a 200SqM (2100SqFt) proper thermally efficient EE home down to about -10c (0f) 12. Insulated any through pipes (Toilet tacks etc) and stay away from these with your pipes. 13. Geothermal Heat Pumps: Lots of good and bad things about this, some of it is common sense: a. Horizontal type: Stay well away from flower beds and trees as the ground around these pipes will freeze solid at the height of cooling. b. Horizontal type: Stay way from paved driveways or you will turn them into Skid pads when there is no serious insolation. c. Vertical: Keep transfer legs short and common sense insulated.Hope this helps. Obviously much of this is averaged and some will be in colder places than other, so use some common sense. John Guest company (UK) make a decent spreader plate to be stapled under existing wooden subflooring. Stay Warm! Cheers, Ron Theaker CD GM Digital Self-Heating Homes |
Another great read for me!
I was thinking that with this style of floor(Warmboard) as in post #74 one could easily DIY by using a router to put in the grooves. Lay the sheets of sub-floor, router the grooves using guide boards, staple/glue on the copper or aluminum sheeting, and then put the desired surface on top. |
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If anyone comes up with a good DIY method to put 0.025" aluminum down on a routed channel floor, I will personally buy that person a brand new Compact Florescent Light bulb. Promise... -AC_Hacker |
channels in Radiant tubing plates
I was discussing this problem with my friend.
(as far as engineering and design, I have just one :-) He suggested this... Fold the metal over a board, eg, a 2x4, so there is a square channel. Special tools might be needed, but maybe not. Then take this upside-down U which is about 9" deep, 1.5" wide, and 12-24" long.... and raise the sides back up. The folded edges become the shoulders of your channel...and the valley forms by itself. AUTO-MAGICALLY Nail it down to the sleepers. The width of the wood is calculated... 1/2 circumference + 1 diameter... Pi*D/2 + D = 1.5 D + D = 2.5D 5/8 * 2.5 = 10/8 + 5/16 = 25/16 = 1.5" Note, other than seeing it done as a test, I have not done this yet... but I expect to soon. Sadly, the only reason I am trying is... Radiantec is back ordered and I need them soon. I got flashing for $32/50' - bought 3. I also got new tinsnips that are optimized for straight. I used a couple of short 2x4 as "wheel chocks" so the roll of material does not get away from me. (Trust me, it's worth wearing gloves :-) |
Great Thread i have not been able to read all of this side yet, took me 3 days to get through the manifesto. I was thinking about incorporating some baseboard heaters into my system(cheap fast easy look nice). I did a little more research and even at lower temps 110F the slant fin from home depot still give 160ish btu/hr per foot. Even if it was 100btu/hr still seems reasonable considering the price. 3' is 26$ or so. not sure but this might help with "cold" starts to bring the heat directly into the living space faster or even hooked up to a secondary heat source. Just something i found interesting i though i would pass on.
I will post some pics once i start with the in floor routing project, i did a few tests on spare piece of osb and it seemed to work fairly fast with a box cut bit.(I'm sure this has already been discussed) Paul |
I need to make a few more posts before i can do much ;) So while i was outside i was thinking but not sure how to test it, maybe someone else is better setup to do this. What about using heavy duty aluminum foil as a heat spreader, I'm not sure if it's thick enough to do much but it would be interesting to see the results of a test, or even multiple layers. It would be extremely easy to work with and the price is not that high either.
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After reading the rest of the posts i feel it would be too thin. Anyways I like the idea of doing the press for forming my own spreaders, Look forward to seeing how things turn out with your press designs.
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It seems to be quite similar to the project I am doing. The main difference between my project and Captrons is, that mine is (will be) open source, while Captrons is commercial and (apparently will be) patent protected. In the USA and Canada, the principle of storing heat under the house for all year space heating is decades old. So I wonder what part of the system will be covered by patent? In my philosophy, the main drive is that as many people as possible should be able to employ this principle of seasonal storage. If there are restrictions as to who are allowed to build and sell it, the use of it would be much less. The main purpose of solar heating is to beat the pants of fossil fuel use, and this is cause is not helped if restricted by patents. Since the principle of storing heat in the ground is already well known, I doubt that any parts of that patent pending status will prevent others from doing similar projects. Like mine. I did think of getting a patent somne years ago - if I could - only to ensure that others did not do so and thus restrict the success of the principle. But it would be way too expensive to get a patent - beyond my ability - with no return on that investment if made available to all. Instead I asked the experts about how the principles could be protected AGAINST a future patent to limit its use. And I was informed that if the information is in the public domain and published, others cannot later patent an idea which already exists. Captron might use some very special techniques they can patent, maybe their control system. But I seriously doubt they can patent pumping solar heated water under the house and use that a seasonal storage. They did not invent solar thermal heating, underfloor heating nor heat pumps. ... In my system, which can be used in existing as well as new houses, I am using several different technologies in a combination, to add up to a design which will be up to 100% self sufficient. This is depending on the design, how well the house is insulated, how large the solar panels are, and so on. Captron speaks of fear of getting his throat cut by revealing too many details of the way they have chosen to do it. I have the opposite fear - that their patent might be able to restrict how others can use this long used principle. Here are some links to information about how this has been employed previously: http://www.greenershelter.com/TokyoPaper.pdf Greener Shelter Capturing Heat While the Sun Shines Although the above projects are using air as the heat transfer medium from roof to soil, the principle is the same if you use liquid rather than air. Technologies These ideas above are liquid based as transport medium. In my system, an existing house have had three 3.5 inch tubes inserted under the house, from a hole dug in the front. Inside the large tube is a smaller tube, about 1.25 inch, reaching to the end of the large tube. This allows water to be circulated all the way through, to deposit heat during the summer. Most of the heat extracted will dissipate to the top, naturally, while it is also possible to extract heat in the same manner. These tubes are inserted by a company that already specializes in placing tubing and cables under existing structures and other obstacles. Building a new house, using this technique, there would be different layers - different depths - where heat is deposited. The tubes would be inserted into the ground by the same technique as described above - or it could be dug in but this is normally much more difficult. The several layers principle is to have more control over when the heat reaches the floor. During the summer, most of the heat will be deposited in the lowest layer, while during winter, any excess heat will be used at the topmost layer. To conclude this - as much as I appreciate Captrons effort in this important area of seasonal solar heating, I fear that it will complicate things for the rest of us. |
I may have missed it but can you point me to the links that talk about pex sizing? I did read through the information fairly fast and i prob missed it. I know 1/2 inch is standards but I'd like to see performance data for 3/8 and 5/16th sizes ( may not be practical just curious)
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While you're investigating PEX diameters, you might also want to consider 5/8"... it's not so common but is available. It has almost 2x the volume per foot. Might also consider bending diameters for various sizes of PEX. There are some strategies for dealing with small spacing and bending diameters. Keep in mind that most advice for sizing/spacing assumes that you will use a fossil fuel boiler. It is so rare that you will find advice for low temperature heating, that you should post any resources you come across that address it. PEX sizing... Happy Hunting, -AC_Hacker P.S.: Just came acros this link. Good discussion, good advice, but all the folks are using electric or fossil fuel boilers, so your spacing will need to be closer, if you are going low-temp heating. |
I was reading in this thread about someone using a bead roller with aluminum flashing.
radiant floor retrofit | Breaktime They mention build it solar and another guy made his own press also, the bead roller seems like a great idea though. pexuniverse.com has 200ft of heat spreader at .019 for 137$ or 68.5 cents per foot. What kind of prices can we get from DIY for comparison, it would be nice to hear from some people that have already looked into this and maybe the best places they have found. Thanks |
Pex in tile floor
We are in the middle of a renovation - we are up to
marking pluming in preparation for the plumber's rough-in. I bought 10 rolls of 1/2" PEX from radiantec. Planning on approx 8" spacing. I understand that it might not deliver enough heat using just geothermal, but I have 2 plans for that. I ordered a 2Ton hydronic air handler by MultiAqua - (I thought it was a bargain) primarily for the AC, (but it does DC also - just kidding :-), but it can deliver heat - either from water or from a heat strip, that was no additional cost (up front). Also, the old boiler is not disappearing and it is free - delivered, installed, permitted, etc. My question is regarding the tile floors... For the Kitchen/Breakfast area, The builder says his plumber and tile guy know how to do radiant. But I doubt they ever did heat plates before. My friend questioned whether the plates actually need to touch the tubes. The builder had the same question. In addition to boxes of pre-formed plates, I have 150' of flashing. The builder suggested just rolling out an aluminum sheet over the whole subfloor. Wondering if any of you smart/experienced guys has a thought? I would lose the direct (conduction) but still have the reflection - and ease of install goes up.... I think the only alternative is plywood sleepers, which is probably cheaper materials, but more labor. (Note, this phase of the work is not DIY, it's under the contractor's domain :-) But, I saw an article that said if the pipes are not snugly held by the plates, they really don't help much. Then again, that was an article by a competitor... For the second floor, I'll do staple-up even for under the Master bathroom. I just need to do a layout. Thanks Seth |
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You don't want aluminum directly in contact with cementitious material, like mortar, thin-set, etc. Because aluminum is chemically active in the presence of a strong base (ph). Using plates in contact with PEX is good, I'm sure you have seen the Thermal Imaging pics I posted. The idea of aluminum rolled out over the entire floor is a very intriguing idea too... really good heat dispersal. But you will need to go over it with something like 1/4" Hadibacker before you put on your tiles. 1/4" Hardibacker is pretty good as a thermal conductor, better than plywood... not quite as good for thermal transfer as Durock or Wonderboard, but a much better candidate for withstanding foot traffic. TAKE MANY PIX!!! Regards, -AC_Hacker |
testbed for plates and DIY plates
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I made a test bed of "sleepers" for installing
and I made a jig to fold per my friend's suggestion. When the "c-channel" of flashing is flattened out, the two short sides "should" become channels for 1/2" PEX. I might need to tune it... need to redo the sleepers. I'll post if it works. Attachment 1444 Attachment 1445 Attachment 1446 |
Homde-made heat plates
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My friend suggested a way to make a channel
in aluminum plate for the tubing. I figured out how to make 2 channels... Here I show the C-Channel made from 18" flashing and what it looks like installed. It is installed on a mock up for an under-floor staple-up. I also included a picture of Radiantec installed. It was almost as much work. They sent me single-channel plates, saying they are better for my above-floor, tiled application. I'm not convinced yet. Need to get the right size staples. And a good staple gun. I got long staples and medium long nails, should have gotten short staples. I did not try my plates on a testbed of sleepers for over-the-floor. I am still grappling with the concern that the Aluminiminimum will chemically interaction with the tile grout. Attachment 1452 Attachment 1453 Attachment 1454 |
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-AC_Hacker |
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When you say 'underfloor', do you mean tubing at the bottom of a slab, or do you mean tubing underneath the sub-floor? -AC_Hacker |
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When you say 'underfloor', do you mean tubing at the bottom of a slab, or do you mean tubing underneath the sub-floor? -AC_Hacker |
Manifold
My radiant tubes have been installed.
(By the way, I had them make 2 loops around the inside of the tub and a loop in the bathroom wall for a towel bar if there is time, per Radiantec's How-To). The nice thing about HEATING pipes is, if there is loss, it is OK - where will it go? Into the room that needs the heat. Now it is time to pressure test. But I have 12 loops which is 24 cable ends. I went to my local general plumbing supplier and he said you need a special tool for PEX. Did he mean you MUST have the same branded tool as the bands you want to use? Or did he mean that he sells this tool and it helps him make his budget? So he could not sell me a manifold because I am not ready to spend $20 on a manifold and $250 on a crimping tool. Can I use the crimper I use on 2/0 cable? :-) Are these questions I should ask in Home Desperate? I don't think I have the luxury of waiting for mail order. (I asked about shark bites, and the cost to make a manifold out of shark bites would be more than the cost of the tool.... Thanks Seth PS be careful with the nails. The plumber (name witheld to protect the guilty) first used 2" nails. Then he used 3/4" nails. Slightly less mess.... No problem, at least in their view, his worker knows how to use an angle grinder. |
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