Insulating the garage
 

I had started a thread on heating my garage this winter. I guess that was a it premature as it still needs to be rewired (existing wiring leaves something to be desired) and insulated. It is standard 2x4 construction and I'd like to get as much insulation into it as possible. However, I'm unsure what the standard procedure is for garages. I'd like to get more than R13 or so fiberglass in there. I'm currently thinking that I'll put some rigid foam insulation over the fiberglass and then some OSB over the rigid foam insulation. I'm not sure how thick I can go, and this would also mess up electrical recepticals I'd imagine as they'd need to be moved outward to mount flush with the wall. I also don't know what I'd need (if anything) for vapor barrier.

Any advice or ideas are welcome. :)

I would either go with Roxul insulation which is rated R14 for 2x4 studs and forget the rigid foam overtop...cause then if you ever need to get to the electrical, you'd have to cut through the rigid foam or take it down somehow since your garage probably has older electrical in it...maybe not. I'm no electrician.

You could also just stick in 3 or 4 inches of rigid foam and forget the bat insulation altogether. Then you can just cut out the area for the wiring. Not sure if you'd still have to vapor barrier it if you do it that thick...I think that's only for spray foam that you don't need it if it's over 2.5 inches.

I'd also make sure you have 2 vents, one on each side of your garage to allow air to pass through and keep the air moving in there.

That is true, I would have to cut through the insulation. But, if I went with spray in insulation, I'd never be able to get at everything. I'd have to carve the stuff out if I needed to get at it.

If you wanted to use spray in insulation and you didn't know your future electrical requirements, you could always run rigid conduit. You can get it in metal or pvc. My suggestion is to add a bunch of 20 amp outlets. You can either add a gfci breaker or control all of the outlets off of an upstream gfci. An extra outlet in the ceiling might also be good. I have an air cleaner that is attached to the ceiling. I would also run at least one 220 outlet so that you can run more powerful tools. I ran 10 gauge wire for my outlets so that I would have more power available. It was a PAIN to run since it was so hard to bend. Multistranded wire would have been easier.

Oh, I'll definitely be wiring in a lot of outlets. I'll be sure to include a couple 220 outlets too. Thankfully, my father in law is a master electrician, so doing the electrical isn't a problem. I am open to suggestions you guy might have though.

That being said, I'm really not too concerned about future electrical needs. I should be able to allow for most of what I need/want when I do the electrical this time around.

I love the idea of spray in foam insulation. The only draw back is cost. This is an unconditioned non-living area so I don't want to go too hog wild on it as there are plenty of projects left to do on the house itself.

Daox,

Since you're retrofitting and want/need a good "bang for buck" ratio I'd suggest:

1. Run conduit and rewire for everything you can imagine wanting or needing.

2. Insulate the foundation perimeter to reduce the garage slab heat loss. I know how cold garage floors can be in the winter and limiting the heat sink effect should help. A large carpet remnant can also really help with increasing comfort in the garage.

3. Run 2x2 stringers horizontally across the 2x4's (http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...MooneyWall.htm) install insulation mesh, blow in (borate-only) cellulose insulation, install drywall.

That should make your garage MUCH warmer and more comfortable in the winter for a reasonable cost.

FWIW,
Tim

Hmmm, very interesting idea Tim. I really like that idea! Its cheap and will give a nice high r-value (and next to no thermal bridging). I think we have a winner.

Has anyone here ever done dense pack cellulose? I've heard it both ways, its easy or hard to get right.


I've really thought about insulating the foundation perimeter. I've even asked around about it. The local guys say it won't do a lot. I'd have to agree with you though, it has to help. I always have hydronic heated floors in mind for the garage to make it super comfortable too, and insulating that is a challenge I think about too.

I moved this thread into the projects section because I just started cleaning up the garage this weekend.

The first I thought that needed to be done was wiring. The current wiring needs a lot of attention. All three of the outlets in the garage are on the short wall of my rectangular garage. This is a real pain. So, I'll be putting 110V outlets all the way around the garage as well as probably adding a service panel and 220V for larger tools.

So, I started pulling things away from the walls to get in there for wiring. However, this also brings up another issue. The builder of the garage admitted to making it as cheap as possible and said he didn't do a good job. As you can see, there is plywood on the corner, but the rest is all particle board... So, it seems my first step isn't just going to be wiring, but also putting plywood, and house wrap (tyvek) on the outside.

My question to any of you guys is, do you think I can get some rigid foam on the outside? I'm thinking even 1/2" would be better than nothing. I am not wanting to get new siding, so I can't go real far here.

Here is the inside of the garage after some moving stuff around. This is where the electrical comes in.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/garage001.JPG



More particle board...
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/garage002.JPG



Back to plywood in the corner, and then back to particle board. I'm also gonna have a fun time removing all those build in shelves to wire and insulate.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/garage003.JPG



This is a close up of where the power comes in. The metal box is just jammed packed with wires. I definitely need a service panel out there. I wouldn't mind my stuff being grounded either!
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/garage004.JPG



I also got bad news the other day. My master electrician father in law is super booked up atm. He probably won't be able to help out with the project. :( That means I got a lot to learn about wiring in the next few weeks! Thankfully, I do have a book on it. I got "The Complete Guide to Wiring" by Black & Decker from the in laws for Christmas. It seems to be alright so far, but I haven't read too much yet. Plus, I'm not too intimidated by wiring recepticals and switches. I just don't really know how to do the service panel, but that should be too hard.

Is the garage electrical on its own sub-panel or does it come from the house? Where does the main power come in?

That is a scary looking connection above. When I added a bunch of circuits to the house, the inspector said that one of the most common problems that he sees are boxes with too many wires for the size. Junctions outside of boxes are a problem too. I think that I have that same book. It was pretty easy to follow. Electrical work seemed really straight forward. One thing that the original electrician did that was helpful was to run one large empty conduit from the panel to the attic. This made adding my circuits a lot easier.

The garage power comes from the house.

Yeah, that is a bit of a scary connection, and that isn't the only one either.

The book is clearing up a bunch of little questions I've had so far. For any other questions I'll just give the father in law a call to see what he thinks.

I don't think I've ever seen particle board that color unless it was wet. If it's still dry, I would just leave it in place. The plywood in the corners should keep the building relatively square. However, your electrical is just plain scary - those are the connections you can see, what about the connections you can't see?

Well, another problem is that there are holes here and there in the particle board. Since I'm currently thinking about insulating the way Tim suggested, I'm worried about the cellulose insulation blowing through it and loosing it over time. I suppose I could patch the holes up. But, the other benefit of taking it down is getting tyvek warp on the outside along with a possible thin sheet of rigid foam.

Particle Board - ugh.

What's the exterior condition of the garage? If it's rough then I'd say go for it and pull the sheathing and particle board - though I'd be tempted to go with OSB instead of plywood for the cost. I think I would do one wall at a time just to make sure the structure stays as solid as possible. If the exterior is in good shape that makes this a tougher call.

Re: insulating the foundation. How deep are the footings? I wonder if a good backhoe operator could dig a narrow trench along the foundation and not leave too big a mess? It's probably worth talking to a foundation contractor to see if they have any ideas.

It looks like there are several options re: rigid foam insulation DOE - Foam Board Insulation The important question would be - what's the cost per R-value compared to the blow-in cellulose? Given that the Mooney Wall is supposed to have a true R-value of about 18 I would hope that the cost is comparable.

Regardless, the electrical is a loss. Better to start fresh than deal with that mess.

Good Luck!
Tim

What are you thinking of for the garage roof insulation?

The exterior is in fine condition. It is just white vinyl siding. I don't think it'll be too horrible to take down and put back up. Although, I've never done it before. OSB does sounds like a better/cheaper way to go too.

I have no idea about the footings. I would have to ask the original builder or just dig down myself.

The rigid foam would cover the exterior just underneath the tyvek wrap. So, it would be layered from outside to inside: Siding, tyvek, rigid foam, OSB, 2x4 + 2x2 mooney wall, OSB. The foam would be in addition to the mooney wall, not replace part of it. I was just thinking polyiso foam with the reflective covering would be best. That should help heat gain in the summer.

For the ceiling I was thinking plywood/osb, then a vapor barrier, and then cellulose up there too. The garage has soffit vents but no ridgeline or other vent in it, so that has to be added too.

Your garage is detached isn't it? Just want to make sure that there is no reason to use drywall on the inside of the garage.

Yup, the garage is detached. No need for drywall. OSB will be more solid and allow mounting things to it much more easily. :) As you can see from the pics, I have some old kitchen cabinets that'll be going up eventually.

I was gonna ask you if I can have those kitchen cabinets...I need some shelving for my garage...but I guess you're hogging them for yourself. Pfff...selfish.

:D

Daox,

The more I think about your project (keeps me from working on my own 8*) ) the more I think there are two preferable options.

1) Quick and Dirty. Spend as little as possible, rewire the interior, insulate the walls and roof, use OSB for the interior walls, and don't touch the exterior.

I think if you try to remove the vinyl siding, add 1/2" or 1" rigid foam insulation and replace the siding you will have 1 or 2 problems. Either you'll not have quite enough siding given the slight increase in surface area, or some of the siding won't come off cleanly and either way you'll need to buy more siding which could be tough to match.

2) Dream Garage Makeover. I'm guessing your garage is also your workshop. If you plan to stay in this house for more than a few years why not plan a complete "eco-garage / workshop"? How about skylights or solatubes for lighting, solar heating, wire for future PV panels, super-insulated walls & roof, recycled and/or eco-friendly materials everywhere, etc...

Each plan has pros & cons. I just hate re-doing a project and sometimes it's worth going "all-out" on something rather than regretting not having done X or Y later.

FWIW,
Tim

Yeah, that is really the question. If I insulate right now with cellulose, that particle board is not coming off. If it did have to come off I would have a heap of cellulose to clean up and have to find a new way to blow it back in. I don't want to have to deal with that. So, I'm leaning towards a sort of middle of the line garage, at least for now. I don't have the money to go all out with solar heat, solatubes, etc. Especially since my 2nd floor still doesn't have any insulation in the walls. However, I do need a place to work during the winter so I can work on things for the house. So, this will be a compromise for the time being.

There are always grandiose dreams of course. Heated floors would be my dream come true. :) Perhaps in a few years I can break up the floor, insulate below it and repour it with pex in it.

See my post about insulation blowers.....it's called commercial wall spray.
mix elmers glue with water 6-8 to 1, and go to town.

I've included 1 pix of the garage I did with it.

Can pull it off easily for re-model, and can fix it if you build your own
set-up.

Buy the insulation from Lowes, borrow the machine, add your nozzle & pump.

There's no cutting & fitting of sheets around obstructions when it comes out of a hose.....

I don't remember exactly, but with blown cellulose, there is a way to make it a solid mass. If you spray that solid mass against plastic, it will be easily removeable for future projects, and will come down in solid batts.

It's more time intensive than just blowing it in, doesn't quite have the same R value per thickness, and it's really a PITA, but it works if you think you'll ever need to remove the insulation for something, and plan on putting it back in the same places it came from.

The idea of sprayed in cellulose is a great idea and one I'd be open too. However, I think I still want to get that particle board out of there just for peace of mind.

Don't get me wrong... I hate blown cellulose fiber. That doesn't make it any less of a great insulation, I just hate it. Soy-based sprayed foam is good too, but damn, it's not fun to play with once it sets.

Seems like the worst offenders for post-installation updating seem to be the best insulators out there, eh?

Chris ? your not eating the stuff are you ?

I can't figure out your hatred towards cellulose.....time to confess.
(maybe form a group)

It doesn't itch like fiberglass, but you doo need to wear a paper dust mask
for the borax fire retardent, 'else your throat will remind you.

Foam, yes sticky, flammable (must be covered over with drywall
or other fire proofing) smelly when applying. The "A" product is
a nasty chemical that can cause sensitization and chemical burns.

It's not like I want to roll around in the stuff all day, nor do it for
a living, but compared to batts of fiberglass, insulation coming
out of a hose is always better.

We have a local manufacturer of the cellulose, and I've been there
a couple of times....the dust is piled up a foot deep in some areas.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...ay-after-4.jpg

No, no, I'm not eating it.. there was over 1,000 lbs of the stuff in the house that I was tearing down, and due to horrible construction practices, NONE of it was salvageable. It was the worst time moving it every time it got in the way, and because it was all wet, and holds water like crazy, it was heavy, and soaked parts of the house that would otherwise have been salvageable.

The boron dust is horrible, as well, and the stuff is still inflammable (we used it to start a fire to dry ourselves out after it rained while we were still tearing down... after using the rain to clean the cellulose dust off our skin, because once you've been in it long enough, it does in fact itch.)

Soy foam is a great product... except for when it hardens up, and becomes a solid mass that covers everything, and needs to be carved to get where you need to go... and then it doesn't even always carve out in one piece, you often get "popcorn" from it.

Given that it's a garage, and not an occupied space, I wouldn't put the wiring in the walls. I'd run external conduit once the walls are taken care of, so that if anything ever needs to be changed, it won't be such an issue to get rid of it.

Daox -

Since you're going to pull down the particle board, it would be a good idea to consider re-use options for it. No sense in throwing away perfectly good fiber-board, right?

OSB is the best choice for walls, because it's treated against moisture absorption on one side (it's designed for the purpose) whereas plywood will eventually soak up water and begin to rot, unless you use treated plywood, which brings on a host of other personal environment issues that you may or may not be concerned with.

I'll have to evaluate the condition of the particle board when I get around to removing it. As it is, the board seems a bit soft when you push on it. When I push on the plywood in the corners it is solid. If I can salvage it I definitely will.

The particle board will be replaced with OSB.

Christ,
sorry to hear of your troubles, I've only worked these 2 jobs
using new, clean and fresh material.

I blew the cellulose on the wall of my shop, and then later welded
pipe supports onto the steel columns. I wire brushed off the glued
on cellulose around it, but still charred some in place.

It startled me to be smoking (after I lifted my helmet) , but a quick brush
with my hand had it out. I let some more "go" and it quickly went out
on it's own.

Before I started building my equipment, I tested the material myself
with a torch, from underneath (simulating real conditions) and
even with material that was left out in the rain for 6 months
(looked like paper mache') I could not discern any change in the
fire suppression action.

I tested samples of foam from a neighbors tear out (was applied 1 year before, and was the newer 1 lb foam) and I did not like the results I was getting. Both in fire suppression, and liberated smoke.

I did note that, in talking with my local cellulose manuf. they add more
fire retardent than the suppliers to Lowes and Home Depot.

If you like foam, here's a hint to get the juices flowing.....

Styrofoam, packing peanuts included, can be stuck with pva
AKA elmers glue. Meaning, you could blow the material using
the equipment I have built, and by adding the glue/water mix,
have it stick in place (no settling). My local styrofoam supplier
sell's large bags of "regrind" scrap.

Apparently the boards that are on the garage are a tar (or something) impregnated board. They are not structural, but they were used as an alternative to OSB. So, I'm rethinking taking the siding off. The only thing is I'd still like to tyvek it, so I'm not sure what I'm doing there yet.

I'm starting with first things first though, the wiring. I spent last night cleaning the garage getting ready for this weekend. My father in law should be coming down to help wire up the garage.

We started electrical work on the garage started Friday morning.

But, first a few more before pictures.

The service panel in the basement. It has a good number of those dual breakers that have two circuits in one spot.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house322.JPG


More garage wiring that isn't to code.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house323.JPG

http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house324.JPG



My wife took off Thursday actually and dug out a trench where the pvc pipe was run for the wiring to the garage. I felt bad for her, because it was raining most of the day too! What a gal, eh? :)
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house326.JPG

http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house327.JPG



Friday morning my father in law began to take apart the service panel. SO many wires... I'm really glad he was there and knows what he is doing.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house328.JPG



While he was busy doing the wiring inside the house, my wife, myself and my mother in law ripped out the wiring in the garage. After that was done, we started putting new recepticals, other needed boxes, and started wiring.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house330.JPG



Here is how the recptical boxes were mounted to space them out for the mooney wall.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house329.JPG



Checking back in with my father in law, he had the new backing board made and the new service panel was installed. He had already begun hooking the circuits back up.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house331.JPG



Back out in the garage again, I mounted up the old service panel that was in the house. I chose to space it away from the wall to get more insulation behind it.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house332.JPG

http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house333.JPG



That about buttons it up for Friday's work. More to come, soon!

I'm not an electrician but the Black and Decker Electric book kept my garage from looking like the original job in yours. It's so much easier and cheaper to buy the book, read it, and do it right the first time (or get professional help). I wanted to run 220 to the garage and put a box in there but I don't have a need for 220 at this time.
Were you able to salvage the wiring and boxes to reuse them?

My father in law didn't bother bending nails back etc. He just put up new boxes. This isn't really the way I wanted to do things, but I can understand the reasoning given the time limitations. Unfortunately, he isn't very environmentally minded. If it doesn't cost too much and is faster, its the right way even if that means wasting. I was able to reuse the light fixtures and receptacles. Also, I do have the boxes and will be able to reuse most of them for future projects.

With a good amount of the electrical work done, we moved on to other things I wanted done while we were working on the garage. The first thing was that the man door for the garage was on the front of the garage instead of pointing towards the house. I never understood why it was built this way.

So, we started tearing off the siding to clear an area for the door.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house334.JPG

http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house335.JPG



Then I cut the hole for the door, and added sheeting to fill in the gaps where we pulled off that tar impregnated sheeting stuff.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house336.JPG



While I was cutting the hole, my father in law took quite a while putting the frame together for the door making sure it was square, putting on the brick molding etc. Then, we were able to slide the door into place, shim it, and screw it into place.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house337.JPG



The last thing we took care of on Saturday was the old door. We tore out the frame, added some 2x4s, and put some sheeting over it.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house338.JPG

http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house339.JPG



Later in the day, my mother in law started wiring up all the circuits to the service panel in the garage so we could get the lights working too.

Sunday morning we started yet another project on the garage. The 17 foot garage door had some sag at the top.

So, we jacked the door up.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house340.JPG



Then, we lag bolted a LBL up to the existing 2x12 frame pieces.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house341.JPG



We started putting the siding back on, and also added a motion sensing light next to the new door. This didn't totally eliminate the sag, but it is much better now.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house342.JPG



Then, we added a few more receptacles along the wall where the old door used to be.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house343.JPG



And, we buttoned up the wiring to the panel, got the garage door opener mounted, put switches in (were just using breakers for a while), and put covers on everything.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/house344.JPG



All that, plus clean up time brought us to the end of the day. The in laws still had a 4 hour trip to go home, so we didn't get to work too late. But, it was pretty nice to rest for a few hours before going to sleep!

I still have to button a few things up. Receptacles still need to be added to the back (long) wall of the garage. We just didn't get time to do that. There is also caulking to be done to seal a few things up. I have an especially nice picture showing light shining through the sill plate area. After those things, we can look at doing some insulating! :)

So, what's happening? We need updates! 8*)

Unfortunately there are no updates. I rearranged my garage with the new layout. I love it. But, I haven't done anymore work on it since then. I've been focusing on trying to get the mower ready to go so I could mow before the snow falls. Good thing too because just this week it started coming down. :)

Woo an update. I finally resided the front of the garage. Its nice to have it looking good again. I also got some weather stripping up on the garage door.

I'll get pics of it later.

I keep forgetting to post up pictures of the siding. But, I am kind of back on this project. I need some warmth to continue working on other things! So, I decided to put up a layer of plastic on the ceiling so if I use a heater, the heat will at least linger for a while. Before putting up this plastic, if I used my kerosene heater, I couldn't even tell it was on unless I was standing directly in front of it. Therefore I stopped using it and just lived with the cold and/or didn't work outside as much. From talking with others, this should help out a fair amount. Here are a couple pics.


In the middle of putting up the first sheet.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/garage005.JPG


First sheet is all up. I have since added a second sheet up next to it. A third sheet has yet to go up (I have to clean all the junk out from up in the rafters), but the third sheet will seal everything up.
http://ecorenovator.org/pictures/garage006.JPG

Slowly but surely the work continues. Its almost done. Just gotta tape holes and do a bit more stapling around the walls. Then, I can finally work in an area that will keep some heat in!

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...1&d=1292984648

I enjoy the updates. It's great to see what trails others blaze so I can pick and choose what I do to my garage / workshop. :D

If I recall correctly, the plastic is a good vapor barrier that is worth the effort for your ceiling. Will you be adding a finishing material, like sheetrock, OSB or plywood at some point in the future?