CFL or LED
 

I've been using CFL for quite a long time, but then here comes the LED. My question is: Is LED reliable, I have no question about it's energy saving features, but I'm concerned about the quality of light.

Does anyone here have used LED? Can you share your thoughts about it?

I have 3 LED light bulbs in my house, one 20 watt $20 one and two $3 9 watt light bulbs from ebay.

The $20 one i bought at home hardware and it is as bright as you could ever want, i have it on a dimmer and use it at 3/4 not to save power but because its that bright.
My 9 watt cree LED's from ebay are not that brilliant, I use one of those in my stoves fan hood light and one in a hallway.
The cheap ebay lights seem more like 2-3 watt as they are more spot light and less fill.

I've got 5 LED's in the house

3 Luminus 8 watt bulbs in the dinner room light and 1 in the basement.

All 4 of them are on dimmers. THe cheap regular dimmer downstairs works great. the bulb is brighter then the expensive dimable CFL that it replaced.
The expensive fancy dimmer that works with regular CFL bulbs does not work well with the LED's. They flicker and are amazingly bright at it's highest setting. I'm thinking about relocating the bulbs and going back to CFL's there.
The light is a little whiter then I prefer but not bad.

I also have a 3 watt LED in a touch sensitive table lamp beside the bed. the lamp has a low/med/high setting. On high the light flashes on for a 1/2 second every 5 seconds. the other two settings work. low is fine to see around the house but would hurt your eyes to read by. Medium is barely enough to read my kindle without straining my eyes.

the 3 watts were $12 for a 3 pack. 2 of them aren't in use.
the 8 watts were $22 for a 2 pack.

All came from costco.

I always question LED efficiency. Last time I did a good search for LED bulbs for the house I found that their efficiency was right around the same or worse than CFL bulbs, at least for the more inexpensive LED bulbs.

That being said I have one LED bulb (besides nightlights) in my house. Its a PAR20 dimmable bulb. I couldn't find a dimmable CFL in the PAR20 format. It was expensive at around $23, but it does work very well. However, the efficiency still isn't stellar compared to a CFL bulb, but it is much much better than the halogen it replaced.

I did a quick little review on it when I first got it.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/lighti...ght-today.html

I've replaced some 23w CFLs with 7.5w LEDs and use brighter 12w LEDs in a few places where extra light is needed.
Mostly, our decorator style lamps were incandescent, on dimmers.


LED Video
Green slot :: LEds video by Xringer - Photobucket

We have an over-voltage problem with our grid.. Not good for LEDs..
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ltageagain.jpg

I had to replace three LEDs that went bad, but they failed in less than a year,
so it didn't cost anything to get new ones.
I don't think we've had a failure for about 6 or 7 months now.


Update on the video..
The last 60w LED shown was replaced with a 23W CFL (since it's used very little in that corner).
The 60w Phillips LED is now sharing a (dual socket) kitchen ceiling lamp fixture with a 23W CFL.
During food prep, that ceiling fixture is needed. It's off-and-on all day long.
My guess is 3 hours a day run time..

Xringer you have some serious lighting.
Have you put the bulbs on a watt meter ?
A 60 watt LED would be the equivalent of a 200 w incandescent :) my 20 w is easy as bright as a 100 w incandescence. You have some bright lights,
or are they not as bright as i suspect ?

Since the wattage is so low, I have not tried to get an accurate measurement..

I just used my 'new' meter (not sure how good it works at low power) and my 100W(eq) CFL used 25W.
I've replaced two of those 100W(eq) CFLs with 60W(eq) LEDs that use 12W. (2 table lamps).

In my work areas, I've replaced 75W & 100W CFLs with 40W(eq) LEDs using 8.6W. (little desk lamps). Worked out pretty well.

There are five of those 40W(eq) LEDs hanging above the dinning table.
So, that fixture is burning up 8.6 x 5 = 43 watts.

That 43 watts of LED above the table is plenty bight.
It compares pretty well to using five incandescent 40w blubs (200W).

Before we installed the five 40W(eq) LEDs in that fixture,
we had 65W(eq) 11W CFL spots installed. They were way too weak..

I got those 65W(eq) CFL spots very cheap (on sale at HD) and they stink.
Much weaker than expected and very sensitive to cold (or even cool) temps.

Those 40w(eq) decorator LEDs in the bedroom and bath are bright!
I have to use the dimmer in the bedroom. It's too much in morning.. :eek:
The bath doesn't have a dimmer, so when it comes on, be ready!!
When taking a shower, I've noticed a lot better lighting in the tub area now..
Those LEDs are the best lighting we've had in the bathroom..
(But now, I'm thinking about trying another dimmer in there )..

I had an interesting experiment with LED christmas lights last year. I found the string of LED lights too bright on the tree, so I tried them on a dimmer. They would not light at all. strangely when I plugged in an incandesent string, both strings worked and dimmed perfectly.
My final set up was two 9 watt LED strings and one 4 watt incandesent night light all dimmed ~50%. So much better than the two or three 27 watt strings from years earlier.

By the way, I made the dimmer test strip from a cheap power strip that I spliced a wall dimmer into the cord. Now I can add a dimmer to any wall outlet for testing through out the year and for lighting the tree at christmas.

Doh ! equivalent forgot about that measure, makes perfect sense now.

That is odd hamsterpower, i suspect the dimmer did not recognize the low load, maybe one more string of LED's and it would dim ?

My oldest LED is around 10 years old an is still working perfectly, the LED next to my bed is around 8 years old, one out side of my door is 5 years old and I think that at that point they started to get cheap enough that I bought a few a year and now have about 15 LED's in the house, non of them have failed all of them when hooked up to a watt meter draw less power then a CFL of the same brightness, but that is NOT true of all LED's, lucky for us most of them now list their lumin output and their watt draw, I don't buy anything that is less then 50 lumins per watt and I aim for 70+ lumins per watt, I also like the warmer white and only use the cold white in places like out door lighting or task/work lighting.

I also live with someone who can stand the blue tint from the cheaper cold white LED's so she notices if I install one that is lower quality.

I had bought 20 pcs MR16 LED track lights about 18 months ago. They were from main land China E-bay supplied. The LEDs are 3w 12v (20w eq) bright white and we have a lot of track lighting in the house and could use another 20 pcs. We really like them. So far lost 3 LEDs I'm sure its the little printed circuit LED driver. $400.00 for the house hold lighting seems high but there is a pay-back and the halogens needed replacing often and I was looking forward to life-time LED lighting. Getting the ladder out to change a bulb then next week another right beside damm.

Randen

I have four LED bulbs in my house (and more in my car), recently purchased. All my other bulbs are CFL. I still have CFL bulbs that are probably 12 years old. I prefer the CFL at this stage in the market's development because the selection of LEDs is smaller, the prices are wicked-high, the power-savings are not so much better than CFLs that they justify the pricing. The four LEDs I bought were for track-lighting applications for which I have never seen CFLs, and the power savings was significant when replacing halogen bulbs that fail frequently anyway. I like the LEDs I have, but I can't comment on reliability since they have only been in use a couple months.

My preference would be with LED since they are either on or off. I like CFLs because of their low power consumption but I don't care for the gas inside of them. Also, CFLs in my mind, don't like cold temps and don't like on/off cycling. LEDs on the other hand, are more tolerant of either.

In regards to dimming LEDs, I was under the impression that an electronic dimmer was to be used with them rather than a resistive dimmer. To expand: the electronics would be PWM which would dictate the length and duration of on, and of off, times. Lesser "on" times would result in less "total" light output even though the LED is on 100% during the "on" times.

The Lutron DVCL dimmer switch is designed to work with LED's, it also has an adjustment on it so you can tune in the LED you have, of course you also need to use an LED that works with dimmer switches.

So far it seems like the people who have had LED's fail are the ones who are going for the cheapest LEDs the can find and that there aren't any brands to avoid because they are sold in blank boxes, am I right? I of course have bought some LED's that came in blank boxes my self, but I bought them from people who get samples, then test and sort to figure out what is the best to sell and if I have one fail then I call up and talk to a real person, but then again I've never had one fail and I have them in nearly every room of the house.

I ran tests on Standard / Fluorescent / CFL / LED / Super-flux LED (all 12V)

Solar Lighting Designers dream is all I can say about the new 3W / 10W or Clustered LED Floodlights ... well made, Very Low Power and Very Bright.
Great on cars but more to the point Superb in you home where a 10W External (Alluminium Body) getting as hot as a cup of tea !! Safe / Safe / Safe . .

BY THE WAY ... Its always interesting to see that people look at LED Technology for 240V and 110V Mains only... hmmmmmm

Think of your house as a car, with many rooms, where each room has 1 x 12V light.
Each 12W Light is supplied with 12Volts from 1 x 12V Battery.
Youtube it / Google it / Study it / build it .. The implications are that your initial investment, will save you much money over possibly 20 years +

Look at Off grid Cabins etc where they double up on Batteries to create 24V and 48V systems. (The only reason for this is to deliver a Specified Load over a specified distance) - Simple OHMS Law - secret to understanding that is learn Basic Electronics Theory - and play around with the 3 things that mean something - Volts / Amps / Resistance (The Resistance is the Cable Length and diameter)
Watts is the Power so 10W divided by 12Volts is ?Amps ... get it
Only worry about 12V / 24V / 48V - Only Design for 10W & 15W LED Lights - There are Maximum cable Length Charts on the Net free - example .. a 15W Light on a 12V System must not be connected by a Cable that is Longer than 6 meters @ .75mm Diameter - Why - plug the numbers into an OHMS Law equation to see why .. FUN !!

A couple of years back, I took my bed room reading lamp off-grid, using some car LEDs.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/lighti...mps-house.html

It's still being used nightly and it works okay. But I've noticed the light is a bit on the blue side (colder?).
It's not the warm light that we get from our 120Vac LEDs used around the house.

The diameter of the wire wasn't considered. I used a small size wire, since the run was only about 12 feet.
The power loss of the wire that short is so low, it wouldn't be noticeable.


Actually, the 100 ft run from the little PV panel on the tracker is about 2 ohms!
Here's a pic of the panel used for the reading lamp. (with charge controller and small SUV battery).
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...testingSBC.jpg
But, so far both of my old car 12V PV charged batteries are working fine using a small wire gauge.

Ok .. but remember if your gauge is the wrong diameter for the Load Current then there is a risk of heating up the cable !!

So the rules are this :-
find out the power that your Light uses.
For a 10W 12V light the OHMS LAW SAYS P/V = A so 10/12 = .83A = 830mA

Nearly 1 Amp which means you can have 9 meters of .75mm diameter Twin & Earth with that light at the end of it, without a problem.
Double the Diameter of the cable then you can double the length.

This is costly over long distance so everybody ups the Voltage instead to reduce the Diameter of the cable over a long distance and hence reducing the cost of the cable. :)

I have both my 500 & 800 watt PV arrays using 2mm cable. IIRC, each of those cables is about 120 feet long.
There are some losses, but since they are less than 1% of the total power, there isn't any profit in worrying about it.
Especially with the price of copper..

When I built my office (partition walls around a previously open second family room), I opted for LED lights, as no lighting was in the room prior to that. I used strings of LED modules (4 SMD LEDs of type 5050 per module, 10 modules per fixture, 2 fixtures). They consume around 7W per fixture according to the LED's specs, and output about 24 lumen per LED for a total of roughly 1000 lumen per fixture (or roundabout the same as a 15W CFL).

The fixtures are simply strips of 1/8" plywood, painted white, with the modules mounted on them. I coated a strip of acrylic of the same size with frosted glass spray and bolted it with 1" distancers to the plywood, then screwed the whole thing to the ceiling.
When I built the partition walls, I mounted a 48W LED driver to one of the studs and ran wiring from an existing outlet in another wall to it - the light switches now switch 12V directly, which made running the wiring for the lights really easy (the low voltage stranded wire I used is flexible and easy to pull around corners and through holes).

In addition, I've got a flexible strip of the LEDs under the shelves which are mounted to the wall above the desk, for a total of about 25W of lighting equivalent to about 50W worth of CFL bulbs. The light output is quite good already, but I'm considering adding another two fixtures; I've mounted the existing two relatively close to one of the walls, so the other half of the room tends to be a little dark.

The LED modules can be had for as little as $20 for a string of 20 of them, which makes them cheaper than pretty much any commercial solution, and since all of them run off the same transformer, losses are likely less as well. LEDs are usually rated at 50,000 hours, which is 5 years of continuous run time or over 30 years with our normal usage - which means that most likely, they'll last about as long as I will ;)

I'm going to convert the rest of the house to similar solutions. The kitchen is next, where I've currently got three circular fluorescent fixtures - at 75W each, yikes!

FYI,
Costco has a new shipment of LED bulbs that are bright, inexpensive (with instant mfg. rebate), instant on, and most are dimmable. They feel solid and well made. They have 4 different kinds here. The instant rebate (taken at register) is like $10. off per bulb with a limit of 4 good until the 14th of January. The brand is Feit Electric.

I replaced some of the can lights @ $5.99 per bulb with the soft white and can't believe how much light they put out. Estimated yearly cost is $1.57 based on 3 hours a day and life span of 22.8 years.

It uses 13 watts, and is a 65 watt replacement.

Don't forget the estimated lamp life
 

A generous donor supplied the homeless shelter where I work with a rather large gift of lighting products, mostly lamps but also a few 4-to-2 troffer converter kits (we have some overlit hallways, I'm paring back our usage where I can), and part of the donation was some brand-new LED flood and spot bulbs.

The chapel in our mission is 35' high at the peak. The pendant fixtures I can juuussst reach with the longest extension pole I have, but I had to carefully knock out the little louvered dealie at the bottom of the fixture. I committed to never putting those back, some years ago. But way up in the peak, far beyond my reach even with the extension pole, is where the floods are that hit the stage and podium.

Well. The longest life bulb I ever put there lasted about 6 months. So while I had a boom lift in the chapel (it was there for a contractor, and while they were breaking for lunch I asked to borrow it. Have you ever gotten a 5'10"-wide boom lift through a 6'0" doorway? It's tricky) resetting some acoustic panels, I also replaced all those spots in the peak with the LED spots.

That was two years ago. So far, they've beaten my previous recordholders by over a year. And I used to have to rent that boom lift on the Ministry's dime, which was at least $200 including delivery. So looked at just by avoided equipment costs, the LED floods are a huge improvement over the old lamps. I know LEDs aren't up to the level of CFL yet, but I tried CFL in that peak a few years ago, and they didn't quite make it a full year. For extremely difficult fixtures, the LED wins my vote.

Good story. Good results. Congratulations.

I've actually had issues with CFLs burning out fairly quickly in my house, not quite sure why. I decided to try LEDs instead. At first I wasn't happy with the low level of light from LEDs. I bought a couple 20 w dimables for the living room though, and like others state here, they were almost too bright and I keep them dimmed down. I prefer the whiter light they put out. So far none have burnt out, other than one that never worked to begin with. I like that they don't emit any heat. There's no warm up time waiting for full brightness. Another interesting thing to note is I've noticed a couple are staying very dimly lit even with the switch off. Looks like I have some faulty switches that need replaced. I wouldn't have realized this without LEDs in the fixtures.

I've noticed the same effect. I don't think its caused by faulty switches though. Leds need very little current to turn on at very low voltage. Usually there is a very small leakage current in any house between the white return wire and the green ground wire. That completed circuit does not go through the light switch. It's usually just not enough current or voltage to cause an effect but leds are sensitive enough to expose it.

If you are interested in finding if that's the cause, and you are comfortable with electrical work, then temporarily pull the green ground wire from that circuit. If that is the cause then the leakage current should stop but the leds should still work normally with the wall switch on. I wouldn't leave the ground disconnected though. It's there for your safety.

Exeric, thanks. I'll do the test before spending money on switches. I have 3 LEDs in track lighting, 2 in dimmer switches, and 2 in regular light fixtures with a standard on off switch. Only the 2 in the regular fixtures with on/off stay lit. Seems like its wasted energy no matter what the cause, albeit a small amount.

Years ago, I noticed some dimmers left a small amount of power running to the blubs.
But, that was when the brightness was turned all the way down.
When I pushed the OFF/ON button, the dim lighting was gone.

Last year, (or maybe 2011) I installed some X10 switches and found they leaked
a pretty good amount of AC to the lamps. IIRC, it had to do with that model X10
had load-sensing, to turn on the lamp using it's off-on switch!

If you are using low voltage LED lamps and are shutting off their DC power-supply,
using a standard AC off-on switch, running dim when off is not possible.
Since standard 120vac 15A wall switches don't leak power (unless underwater).
Maybe an expensive switch has a capacitor to inhibit arcs..?.

If you do see dimly lit low-voltage LED running on 'free' power from outer space,
you might be living too close to a large radio transmitter.. :)

Guess I'll "phone home" and tell them thanks for the free electricity!

These are regular on/off switches, guaranteed not to be expensive in my house. I think the LEDs are 2 -4w. If it isn't (can't?) be the switch then I suspect a wiring issue. My house was wired poorly. Outlets upstairs/lights down stairs on the same circuit, lights upstairs/outlets down, etc. Even got a couple switches I haven't figured out what they're for.

You should check all your outlets with a tester..http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...92b077_400.jpg
Get one at Lowes or Home Depot.

If you know how to change a broken (or install a new) outlet (safely) then you can likely repair most problems.
But, if you aren't sure, find a good electrician. Be aware, not all of them are 'good'..

There is a way (I think) to eliminate any leakage current from lighting up high sensitivity LEDs. You can get a double pole wall switch. They aren't very common but they can be found on the internet, and not super expensive either. Don't confuse them with 3 and 4 way switches. Just hook up the hot wires to one pole and the ground wires to the other pole. That should do it. If you are using multiple wall switches for controling one light it wouldn't work very well, though.

Really, the only reason I could ever see for worrying about leakage current turning LEDs on is if the lights are in your bedroom and you want it totally dark at night. The other reason would be is if the house is miswired, but you'd likely have the LEDs burning pretty brightly then.

Edit:
Actually, if one was determined to eliminate the problem with a double pole switch then it would be better to connect the 2 poles to the hot and neutral wires, (black or red, and white respectively.) That way you would still having a working ground protecting you while still eliminating any possible closed circuit between hot/neutral to ground turning the LED on.

I currently have two GU22 based LED bulbs in my kitchen area, mainly for kitchen sink/counter lighting.

I also have a tendency to keep them running throughout the day (night falls rather early and also we use that for security reasons ---both working parents so vacant during daytime, etc. )

These are bought from that big box Sweedish furniture store and priced right (approx. 7bux/pop).

The rest of my house comprised of 6" pot lights but I have since found reflector based pots with standard screw based attachment, and I have since converted all of my pot lights to using standard screw based CFL lighting (from 9W to 13W).My record of running sweedish box store CFL 9Watter is >7000hrs so far, and still going strong (I have them on occupancy sensor now).

Q.