Heat pump thoughts
 

3 bids for heat pumps. 3 different suggestions.

A little background. 1700 sq. ft. home with a 15x15 unconditioned atrium in the center. The entire roof is glass and the back wall is near 18' tall.
(lots of volume)

Currently we have propane furnace and water heater.

Our goals are lower utility costs. Stop burning wood. (I know 2 directions right there)
Make the atrium warmer in winter and cooler in summer.(not perfect-just better)
Probably by adding registers to the atrium walls.

Back to the bids.
1st company suggests adding a ductless wall mount in the atrium. and opening the windows to the main room(s) allowing heat to filter.
(I'm no expert but that co. will not get the job)

2nd company, suggest adding 3 ton heat pump to current Propane furnace.
Sounds logical to me.

3rd company says get rid of propane furnace as well as our instant hot water heater (also propane)and add there 4 ton system.
He didn't suggest a new water heater so I can only assume he means get an electric instant water heater which is off topic. Deal with that later.

I always thought electric heat pumps don't perform well in very cold weather.
Seattle area gets a few days a year below 30.
My co-worker has a electric heat pump and said its fine in the winter.

Our propane furnace is only a few years old. Should I retain it as a hybrid
system for our home or move it to my shop?
Not giving it to anyone to recycle.(as suggested)

Thoughts?
More info needed? If so what?
Thanks!

Your best bet would be to retain your propane heat as backup and get a heat pump that was just a bit too small.

The rule of thumb (thumb rhymes with dumb) is 1 Ton per 1000 square feet.

The rule of thumb knows nothing about your insulation, and neither do we.

By the rule of thumb, a 1.5 Ton would do it.

But if you had great insulation. a tight house and good windows, 1 Ton or less would be fine.

If your insulation was awful, 3 Tons or more might be required.

I'm beginning that professionals will oversize so they don't have to do call backs. It might also be that they don't actually know how to do an accurate heat load analysis, therefore they can't 'cut it close' because they don't really know what the heat load is. At any rate, when they oversize, the consumer doesn't get the maximum performance for the money they spend on monthly utilities.

Aslo, when it comes to heating their house, most homeowners think first about how to heat, with insulation as an afterthought.

Too bad, it should be the other way around... you should go to every length to keep the heat in the house.

With heat pumps, bigger is not better. Just a bit too small is best, and use some form of backup (wood, propane, electric) to fill in.

You have all summer... insulate your house like it was going out of style.

-AC

I am living in a 1650 sq' ranch home. I have a 3 ton 15 seer heat pump witha propane furnace as back up. I live in eastern NC. Winter temps average probably about 30f. Sometimes it gets to 20f at night but almost always gets to 40f in the day time. I assume from your statements that you have something similar. I have 9 to 10" insulation in attic most of the house has 3.5 in walls, vinyl replacement windows, insulated entance doors and a double french door . House faces south so good sun exposure in the winter. It also has a crawl space and I insulated the floor beneath the house to 6.25".

Our electric rate is 7.5 cents per KWH and my all electric house has had a high electric bill of $190.00. I forgot to mention I use a Honeywell IAQ thermostat with an outdoor temp sensor to control the system. I rarely have to invoke backup heat. I have been using the same 200 gallon propane tank for 3 years. I also have a 4" high efficiency air filter.

If you get a heat pump, which I would recommend, get the Honeywell stat as well. It is very flexible and capable and worth the money. It controls every device that can be connected to the unit.
Thermostats | Programmable Thermostats | Digital Thermostat | Thermostat | Honeywell Thermostats
VisionPRO IAQ 7-Day Programmable Comfort System

Controls temperature and indoor air quality products from one control
Easy-to-follow menu driven programming
Smart change/check reminders on air filters, UV bulbs and humidifier pads

Make sure your contractor shows you his sizing method and explains how he came up with his figures. Make sure he will be sealing the duct work, you can lose 30 or more heat and cooling through duct leaks. Make sure they are quoting insulated duct work. Many contractors I contacted wanted to argue about how I wanted it done because it was more cost effective for them to do it their way.

Do you know what the HSPF rating is on your heat pump?

The SEER rating better describes the cooling efficiency, while the HSPF better describes the Heating Seasonal Performance Factor.

Sometimes units with the same SEER ratings may have significantly different HSPF ratings.

-AC

AC the information you request--9.0 HSPF.

jlaw,

Thanks.

The HSPF is a performance rating that is based on how efficiently your unit will perform over the course of an 'average' winter. I think that there is some statistical determination of an average winter.

The number is the COP (AKA: Coefficient Of Performance) times the watt-to-BTU conversion factor which is 3.412.

So if you wanted to know the COP, you divide the HSPF by 3.412 and you get COP.

COP = HSPF / 3.412 = 9 / 3.412 = 2.64

Personally, I'm more comfortable thinking in terms of COP because it is unitless, and applies equally to the metric system and to our system in the US, so you can compare over a wider range.

I believe that you're in more of a mixed climate and would require both heating & cooling in approximately equal quantities.

where I live I only need cooling for about two weeks of the year, so my focus is almost exclusively on heating, so the HSPF is the most important for me.

When I bought my mini-split, I shopped for SEER because I didn't know that HSPF would be so important in my case. My unit, which I'm pleased with, has an HSPF rating of 7.7, so my COP is 2.25. Not as good as your and not so good in light of the impact that those numbers have had on my electrical bill. But it was a big improvement over what I had before.

For comparison purposes, the Fujitsu 12RLS2 is a 12,000 BTU (1-Ton) mini-split that has a SEER rating of 25 and a HSPF rating of 12 which would mean a COP of 3.52, which is pretty outstanding.

Let's hear it for improvements!

-AC

AC
A while back I posted that I was interested in adding a water heat exchanger to my unit as I have a creek 100' away that never freezes. I had considered running tubing beneath the creek bed which is all sand and circulating glycol to increase the efficiency even more. I have been kicking this idea around now for about 6 months. Not sure that the cost of the equipment, heat exchanger, pump and controls and additional power to run pump would be offset with power savings. The heat exchanger for my size would be around 300.00 and the pump about 100.00 plus tubing, digging and other work.

In any case this is what I want to do. Not sure how I will mount and place the heat exchanger and pump without it looking ugly and cobbled.

Nonhog,

How much of the work are you planning on doing yourself? Are you looking for a quick turnkey solution, or are you willing to invest some sweat equity to save a considerable amount of cash?

It sounds as if you want to keep your existing ductwork and at least some of your existing equipment. Although it may be less expensive up front to just throw something in, you really want to get what you already have evaluated by an expert or at least do a decent energy audit/heat load analysis of your home before improving upon it. Most utility companies will do this sort of thing for next to nothing to point you in the right direction. You may find that your home leaks air or heat somewhere badly, and fixing the energy drain may change the economics of what you already have for the better.

It would be very helpful if you gave us some more info on the building you want to heat, like how much heat is it going to need?

How did you determine the HX you require? How did you determine the pump you need?

The more information & photos you can share, the better the quality of the advice that will come your way.

Also, keep in mind that the more you are able to take measures to prevent heat loss, like sealing the house really well, and insulating beyond what is 'reasonable', the less you'll need to invest in the components to build your water source heat pump... and the less you'll need to spend every month to run it.

Best,

-AC

Nonhog:

#2 is the only one I'd consider (of the 3 you mention) if you are not going to do most of the work yourself. I added a 3T to son's hose and kept his nat gas furnace in place (near you, Kent, WA, so climate the same, his is 5000 sq ft house, the 3T work fine all year)

#1 is stupid, #3 is about getting you to spend the most possible.


How about #4, something you can DIY with minimal effort:

Buy 2 ea 1T or 1.5T inverter driven mini-splits online (19+ seer, about $1100 each including shippipng, saves you $200 sales tax right off) Install these at opposite ends of the house. Recently installed one in son's 800 sq ft office, very quiet, cannot even hear the outside unit running 20 feet away.

As for DIY, buy a good vacuum pump off ebay or similar (about $150 for a good one for your purpose) and a micron gauge - another $80 or so. The mini-splits have pre-formed flare fittings.
Install all the mechanical, torque the fittings to spec using oil on all surfaces (POE oil best, get some on line also, you only need a few ounces at most).
Pull a <500 micron vacuum for a few hours and verify no leaks. Open the outdoor unit valves and you are good to go!

If you decide to DIY the mini-splits, plenty of folks here can guide you thru details of the steps above.

Not an ad (I have no interest in the brand), but the last mini-split I bought on-line was a Klimaire for son's office - I figured I was taking a big chance on getting a piece of chinese junk for the low price I paid, but was VERY surprised at the quality and it has worked well for the 6 mo it has been installed. Was actually amazed at how quiet, esp. for someone used to the 80 dB monsters of yesteryear.

PS: leave your propane in place as a backup. ?? are you an seattle city light power or PSE? Probably PSE and off the nat gas grid if you are on propane now.

Thanks for the reply's! Not sure where summer went? I've got almost enough wood for winter. Still thinking. mejunkhound I like the 2 mini splits idea.
One concern I have is the forced propane furnace ducts. If I have an efficient mini split system how would I seal the ducts from the forced system? Of course it would need to be a simple better than the basic grill set up so I dont lose heat in the duct work?

Had an audit done and was pretty turned off by the hard sell that began as soon as the worker wrapped up his inspection. I was there watching and told the guy several times I am a DIY'r (so yes jeff5may, I will do as much as possible) I did feel the air coming out the outlets and door frames, I saw infrared images of the boxes around my canned lights. That sort of thing.

I could do all but the evac/charge freon work.

You can do that too.

-AC

I know what you mean, Nonhog. Sometimes an energy audit is like going to a car dealership for a "free" test drive. However, lots of info can be gleaned from these encounters concerning the test results. Sometimes it's better to prolong the agony of a salesman and his pitch to get clear answers.

If the auditor/sales associate has doubts you'll buy anything, they might not let you know much about your audit. They would rather opt for a hasty exit, and "on to the next one", so they say, in hopes of a sale and a paycheck. Heck, the auditor might not have even been paid to do the audit! The HVAC industry has such a high cost structure and such an aura of mystery and complexity that a couple of sales a week will make up for a dozen or so energy audits done for free!

So what did the auditor suggest in his pitch? Did you basically get a fourth estimate for a heating system, or did he suggest methods to reduce your heat loss? I'm assuming they did a blower door test and took some thermal imaging from your comments. Did you get any concrete info from the audit?

This guy really went all out crawling in the attic. And that's tough in my house.
This guy was not little had to be a real pain to look at what was up there.
I've been all through my attic. I'm 6' tall but not too wide. LOL
I never let the sales pitch start. He kept saying we could get together like I had all the time in the world. Anyway I e-mailed the company today and asked to be sent the report. I did tell them how good the guy was but it would not result in any sales as I am a DIY'r. Nothing concrete yet.
Have my doubts. I'll let you know what if anything comes of it.
I did spent 95$ so I expect my results.

Before you all paint HVAC contractors with the same black brush (all rip off artists), be aware that there are many contractors that are really trying to do a good job.

I get brought in, rather commonly, to look at "difficult" solutions. The HVAC company hires me to look at their examination/test data. This can include a blower door test, IR scan, physical insulation assessment, examination of all utility bills that have HVAC influence, HVAC size/age/capacity/efficiency as well as owner lifestyle.

Sorry, but this is not cheap! Yes, many "can" do this themselves and many on this site can do it. But how does the retired couple, one in a wheelchair (spinal injury from Vietnam) and the other completely ignorant of basic physics do this?

I enjoy working with ideas and finding a good engineering solution to a problem. On my own home, I can afford the luxury of spending "free" time, but I can't give it away to anyone when I am on the clock.

It is good to recall the saying "that which is given away lightly is little regarded". There are consults that I do commonly where people are astounded at how leaky their home is, are using electric resistance heat and just assume that the heating bills have to be that way. They view my consult as frankly a tremendous value! That said, I have a sliding scale and at times I do "give away" time (such as above couple).

There is a HUGE value to pointing out that simply sealing up a home can reduce HVAC system capacity by sometimes 50%. But finding those leaks often requires more than a candle/wet finger and a windy day . . . .

Hope you all understand that the "free" energy consult is just like the "free lunch".


Steve

I believe that the last time you said this, I corrected your statement to be, "That which is given away is difficult to monetize".

It takes energy to be a DIY guy or DIY gal, not only to do the actual work, but even before that, to overcome the notion of helplessness in the face of overwhelming technology, and industry and trade protectionism.

I myself, have paid my own good money to infiltrate professional industry and trade seminars, where I learned first hand how they manipulate and hold back information to enhance their profits at the expense of their customers who they pretend to serve. I have seen this in GSHP re-certification seminars and also Solar re-certification seminars. I learned as much as I could there and have shared it out to the fullest extent possible, in the pages of EcoRenovator.

The industry and trade groups will flourish just fine without the DIY world paying any homage to them at all.

I would even go so far as to say that it is very healthy for any DIY guy or DIY gal to begin each project with a quiet moment of reflective time in which they focus their minds on their feelings of contempt for over-priced, under-skilled, irresponsible, predatory "professionals".

Then learn all you can, and have at it!

Sincerely,

-AC_Hacker

Not really sure how to take your post, since you quoted me. What you quoted was me taking my hat off to the guy for doing a good job. Way above and beyond the $95.00 (not free) charge. However they quoted the price and we took them up on it. I owe them nothing, they owe me my results. I was upfront before, during and after. They really were not.
I didn't think there were strings attached. I figured $95.00 and an hour and they would be gone. I was wrong, the guy spent way more than an hour because he was good. This company might be just the ticket for the average guy? I just wish they were upfront about the hard sale. Heck time share people are. :thumbup:

Nonhog,

Your quote was meant to emphasize just how much this guy did for the $95. Did not mean to confuse.

We can help you sort out what you need. Even if you condition the atrium, a 24,000 BTU unit (2 ton) would be my choice. Leave the propane unit in for now and explore this winter (while you burn your wood) the options that are on this forum.

Steve


Steve

Got it. (my bad, I see that now) Thanks!

I didn't mean to offend anyone having this conversation. I agree that there are lots of licensed journeymen and contractors that do an exceptional job of performing service work. But many times, it's not the serviceman that comes out to do audits and quotes.

Yes, there are many installers that also do sales, but there are many that just fulfill workorders. The planning and selection process in these cases is previously done by someone entirely different: architects, engineers, regional salesmen, route managers, business owners, etc. By the time the service pro makes it to the job site, everything is pretty much decided already.

In Nonhog's situation, they probably will never see a contractor at their door. Royce Raleigh III got the boot before he could close a proper deal. Hopefully he gives good analyses.

If you want to do it right, do some more reading, then do it yourself. You don't even need EPA 608 if you opt for a R410a system, though it's easy to get and you'll have a much better time with the stores if you do.

Nonhog,

So have you heard anything from the energy auditor?
Heating season is upon us. Have you decided what to do or done anything yet?

Still in yap mode. LOL Just about done with our last car payment. For sure going to do this. Had people over for Thanksgiving and it was an ice box in the atrium.

I tend to look at the low priced ones. Need to study reviews. I'll jump up in price if the research indicates I do so.

And yes I got my report. They were very cordial.
Thanks for asking!

Doing my homework, (time to fill Propane at nearly a dollar a gallon more than last fill) Considering a heat pump added to furnace as well as a mini split in the atrium. Or?

Where did you get your 3T system for your sons home? Local?

Also anyone who would like to add links of good places to buy mini splits
online (or local, Seattle-Tacoma) love to hear it!:thumbup:

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Ductle...inCat=&subCat=
I had good luck with these guys. Look out for coupon codes and they have free shipping. Some of higher efficiency models can pay for the extra cost in the long run.

I am not sure what size you are looking for.

I just found a couple outdoor units on craigslist 2 days ago for another ecorenovator:

http://images.craigslist.org/00U0U_f...MR_600x450.jpg
Modern, 25 SEER inverter 1 ton R410 unit

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/app/4222695296.html

http://images.craigslist.org/00T0T_b...Qo_600x450.jpg
Old school, 3 ton R22 unit
http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/app/4223959403.html

At under $150 each, they are most likely long gone.

Today didn't turn up such gems:

Heat Pump w/ Matching Coil, 3 ton
owner is asking $600, central split system


Mitsubishi duct less heat pump a/c
2 ton 19 SEER Mitsi mini-split with indoor unit + remote, $800 you come remove it.

As a rule I seldom pay asking price on craigslist unless the item is just dirt cheap.

The Mr Slim is a really great unit, but I know of no one who has succeeded hacking this or a similar unit, AND who will share their method, such that others could follow.

Xringer was able to get a deal on a used inside unit of the same make & model.

The 'old school' units, on the other hand, are relatively straight forward to hack.

-AC

Old school ODU from post # 27 is back, this time only $90!

Heat Pump

For $90, this unit is worth it even if the compressor is bad. Needs at least an indoor unit.

Indeed! This would be a really good starting point.

On this vintage (pre-minisplit), they didn't really have an "indoor unit".

Rather, they have an air handler that is inserted into the forced air system, and a properly sized set of evaporator coils is inside the air handler. Then a thermostat completes the setup.

It wouldn't be a huge challenge to substitute a large brazed plate HX for the evaporator coils in a forced air system (TXV instead of cap tubes), and use such a rig to heat a concrete slab (rigorously insulated on the underside, of course).

Quiet, efficient, thrifty (they're essentially giving it away), readily obtainable parts...

I wouldn't be surprised if that unit still had a full charge of R22 already inside of it.

With a properly built slab, the temperature of the water-in could be pretty low (still gotta consider the overall heat load, of course).

I messed about with the Carnot efficiency theorem, and when you are able to lower the feed temp to the slab a little, the efficiency of the heat pump goes up a lot.

-AC

Northwest heat pumps
 

Hi Nonhog,
I can tell you about my experience with heat pumps in the NW. The Geothermal is great for the guys in the mid west and back east where the temperature is colder than their ground temperature for 6 months out of the year. Here in the NW with our moderate temps ( a week or two below 30* isn't cold) an Air Source Heat Pump is an economical and competitive alternative.
The new Heat pumps use R410a which is able to collect heat at very low temps (if I remember right less than 0*). Here on the west side of the Cascades there is usually only a couple weeks where we are below freezing. So, the rest of the time the HP is working very efficiently.
Heat pumps produce low heat, the old school heat pumps (air to air) used to blow "warm" air when compared to a NG furnace's hot air. People complained that Heat pumps didn't produce enough heat.
I was able to get around this "problem" in a couple ways. First I installed an air/ water HP (Daiken Altherma), water stores energy, so the low heat accumulates. Second, I only need low heat for the radiant floors. With HPs the less heat they have to produce, the more efficient they are.
I used to use Propane also, so I know what you're going through. Since their not regulated they can charge whatever they can get away with. My Heat pump is almost 500% efficient, it cut my energy costs to 1/3 of what it was with propane.
Most heat pumps use a 100% electrical "backup" in case it gets really cold. Straight electricity is still cheaper than most propane setups in our area ($0.11 kWh and $3+ gl propane). I would recommend you keep it simple and use the Heat pump alone, in our climate your "backup" heat source will never kick on anyway. Setting up the controls for a "Dual heat source" system can get involved and is a difficult DIY project.
I know you're not set up for hydronic heating. Your application sounds ideal for a couple mini splits, I am sure you will have no regrets. One thing I want to mention is that there is no silver bullet that works best for everybody everywhere, to be efficient you have to take advantage of what you have, whether it is solar energy or a mild climate. Good luck with your project, and let us know how it turned out.

Thanks for all the responces! I just added Propane @ $3.00/gallon. was under $2.00
in August. I pulled money from my retirement and plan to get going on a re-heat.
My head is still spinning on which way to go. I have an electrician friend who has a HVAC friend.....yada yada... hope to see how willing he might be to do some consultation/help with install. I can do most if not all. Maybe he has a line on systems
cheap? He helped my buddy which by no means does that mean I'll get the same.
We'll see.
I'll update when I have news! Keep the thoughts coming!

Attachment 3775

Not to scale but you can see how just about everything will be a compromise. 15X15 atrium is really in the way.
If I'm thinking right I might need 3 mini split systems?
One in front room and one in living room and a third in the atrium.
Which has 20' tall ceiling (glass) get real cold in winter and real hot in summer. The sliding glass doors do a pretty good job of sealing up the rest of the house.

If I do mini splits I'd probably better add cadet style heaters to each bedroom.

Love the mini split idea but in this house I wonder if just making the Propane system a hybrid would be best. Plus a mini in the atrium. Which may never be a well conditioned area but better Is acceptable.

Oy vey! :D

Nonhog,

I'd give anything to have a layout like you have.

I totally understand your dissatisfaction with the 'atrium'... you are just not "Nonhog of the Jungle".

If I had it, I would remove all the glass roof and put in the best insulation I possibly could, but I would keep a smallish opening skylight at the peak, to dump heat in the summertime.

Your atrium should be re-purposed into a 'Core Room', that was well insulated in the walls, roof & floor... but leave a few high R-value windows that could open into the rest of the house. I would retreat to the core room in the winter evenings and in the peak heat days of summer, closing the windows when I did so.

It would leak heat (or cool), but it would leak heat (or cool) into the rest of your house.

You could turn a pain-in-the-Nonhog into a real asset.

I also love the way that the furnace was placed in the garage, making it possible to lose the maximum possible amount of heat... just GREAT!

-AC

I actually like the atrium. It use to have a hot tub. after the 3rd year we took it out. Do miss it from time to time.
Seeing the moon from inside the house is a real treat.
We talked about roofing and insulating the atrium room but my wife would not have it. We are surrounded by tall fir tree's. She wants all the light coming in she can get.
Gets worse! She wants to open the kitchen into the atrium which w/o the tall ceiling and glass is not a bad idea.
With that area open it could be a real chore to keep the house at a reasonable temp. I am thinking some sort of doors to close off atrium from kitchen when we need to heat or cool? So much to consider............sigh!

You've become a slave to your atrium.

-AC

No! wrong! I'm a slave to my wife. :thumbup:

We spoke with a installer at the Homeshow and told him up front I'm a DIY
He still spent more time than all 3 previous co. combined. Offered to sell systems and do some or none of the install.
I'd gladly support a local guy and spent a little (see about that right?) more.
I will give him the chance for a sell.



New question 2 parts:
one, quality of heat? Heat pump using exsiting ducts or mini splits?
two, cost of use?

Thanks for all the help!

It's better.


Yes, they are available both ways.


It's cheaper.


Best,

-AC

I have high efficiency inverter mini splits. The heat is very good and conformable. The inverter run almost all the time and just ramps and down the compressor. This keeps away the big temp swings.
I am sold on this technology.


https://www.acwholesalers.com/Panaso...00-30.50|LAST#
select the condenser
Then select Resources this will tell you how much power they will use.