DIY Geothermal install
 

I am considering putting in Geothermal. I was going to wait but some of the tax credits are expiring.

I have a 4 ton AC now with natural gas heat we really don’t use these we use theses much we use our mini splits.
I bought a tractor with a backhoe. https://ecorenovator.org/forum/lawn-...-1710-tbl.html I want to dig my own loop field. I know it will take longer but I am ok with that we still have Mini splits so it does not have to be a fast install.


I wanted to keep my natural gas heat as backup heat but I talked to a couple installers here and they say don’t do it. They said it will kill efficiency.

I have been thinking about the system and would like some advice.
Going with a 4 ton two stage system.

1.) Pressurized or non-Pressurized system? Which one is better? I have read non-Pressurized is simpler to purge and fill?

2.) Slinkey loops or no slinky loop? I have been thinking about doing slinky to not dig up as much pasture but I am not sure.
I could do it just with a 10” trench since I have a backhoe.

3.) What system to get? I have been thinking of maybe getting a climate master system water to air it will be in my crawl space. Are there better brands?

4.) Loop field I am seeing 600’ each loop ¾” pipe with 4 loops for a 4 ton system.

5.) I have never done duct work I might contract that part out.

Looking for some feedback I have been reading but not many people dig their own system for every thing i read do it this way I also read do do it this way.

Stay way from Climatemaster - far prefer Waterfurnace.

Steve

I have two climatemasters and they have been extremely reliable

How much of a house are you trying to heat??
We’re heating 3600 sq ft with 3.5 ton 90% of the time. Our Canadian climate may be a little more harsh

Randen

You know you can build one!!!

My house is 2100 sq ft.
I was thinking about 3.5 ton the only reason I said 4 ton was that we had a 4 ton AC unit originally installed.

If I go with a two stage system it should run on the first stage most of the time.

I am not building one. Just putting one in will be plenty of work. The tax break is a big thing for me.

Copy that on building one. I know that buying one in the states can be quite reasonable. A ground source is a different animal quite efficient. For 2100 sq ft in SC for ground source 2.5 would do quite well. But remember they are designed to run. Short cycling just runs up your electric bill

I would think that the 2 stage are really good for larger units 6 tons plus

Randen

Thanks for the input I will look into this some more. One stage units are cheaper and a smaller unit requires less digging.

I think I will get a local company quote me an install. DIY must save money to make it worth it.

When I dig, I will scrape off top soil set it aside the put it back on top when done.
The contractors don’t do this we have very little top soil here and we have red clay.
You can’t grow grass very well in red clay.

If you add up my mini splits i have installed now it comes to 3.75 Ton

Does anyone sell Waterfurnace direct to customers?

I have someone coming out Monday to give me a quote.
They install Waterfurnace I will see what they have to say.

The Geothermal quote was today.
$37,095 for a series 7 water furnace
$32,324 for a series 5 water furnace

This includes no hot water.
The load calc came to 3.62 ton they would install a 4 ton unit with no backup heat strips.
(I have 3.75 ton mini splits now)
Horizontal loop 6’ deep they do not do slinky they do 3’ trench with 2 loops one on left one on right return ½ up.

There is no way I will have it installed at this cost. It is like they calc the tax savings and add that much to the estimate.

That is about the same way the solar installed cost est. was done.


A local guy that sells used equipment will take my old equipment and install the Geo unit for 600-700 that does not sound bad but I really have no idea what it would cost.
I do all the pluming and electrical...
They just swap units.

I am looking at a couple climate master systems from Ingrams water & air
Tranquility 30 and the Tranquility 22 the 30 is $1899.39 more money.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1542677127

Not sure it is worth it they are both 2 stage 4 ton and both use the IGate thermostat that gives you lots of info.

I am thinking about a non-pressurized system my system is in the crawl space and I don’t want to make a purge cart.

I am thinking about getting a Desuperheater and disable it at first the later getting a holding tank that will feed my tankless hot water heater.

It will be about 50’ away from the unit hopefully that is not too far.
Still need to decide to do Slinky and just using my 10” back hoe and doing long runs.

The Tranquility 22 with everything to do the install is $8,982
after Tax credit $4,041.9
TEH Specifications TZ048
https://cdn.iwae.com/media/manuals/c...ifications.pdf


The Tranquility 30 with everything to do the install is 11696.08
after Tax credit $5263.24
TEH Specifications TZ048
https://cdn.iwae.com/media/manuals/c...ifications.pdf

Right now the tax credit is 30% fed and 25% state so 55%.

I am going to look for some software or tool to do a manual J. I am with randen here. My mini splits can keep up on very hot days. 3.75 ton
We are not going to get rid on the mini splits. So maybe scale down to a 3 ton two stage system. Dig the loops with my 10” bucket.

That would take my loops to 3 600’ about 1800’ of trench. I am not sure how long that would take to dig.
Time is on my side since I have the mini splits.

I talked with Terra Source today. I got to talk to the guy that designs the loops very helpful.

One pipe option is SDR-9 pipe 3/4" size is pre-charged with 190 proof industrial antifreeze.

This system is pressurized but flushing is simpler since loops are pre-charged with antifreeze and sealed.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1542767282

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1542767282

I would need to buy a larger bucket a 16” bucket for my backhoe (that is the biggest bucket I can run). I would have 4 loops but put two loops per trench.

Two 300’ trenches each having two loops. This would cut my install time by a lot.

3-ton Tranquility 30 system with some extra loop pipe and keep the mini splits.

Warranty is done through them. DIY does not void warranty.

I put the numbers through the software and it looks good to me.

The installer that did my quote said the don’t use aux heater coils here.

It is $236 to add 10K auxiliary heat coils. My mini splits only work down to 5 degrees.

In the last 5 years we had one week where 4 days it was colder that cold. I still wonder if I should install them.

Cost is $9,560.56 depending on shipping could very a little.
My out of pocket cost would be $4,302.25 after tax credits.

Pinballlooking

The price for everything, is that the field loop tubing and pump centre??? With the rebate thats awesome. For us the cost was $7000.00 just for the Heat-pump and plus plus plus. With the price of $4000.00 and everything, who do I make the cheque out to.??

You may be able to place your pump centre outside and run the supply tubes into your heat-pump in the crawl space. so you could do your purge outside. Just build a little cover to keep the weather off it. You will need to add the anti-freeze regardless.

Your ability to excavate your own field loop is a huge advantage.!!!!!!!!!!

4 ton still sounds like WAY too much for a home in SC. We as I had said have a 3 ton which handles a Canadian Climate on 3600 sq ft. 90% of the time. Only on those -22 Deg C. nights with the wind just howling does the second unit start.

Air-conditioning is a non issue. 36 Deg.C days high humidity not a problem!!! Just let it purr. Very Very effective. The heats going into the ground to help with the following seasons heating.

For some reason some contractors like to oversize the equipment. They do the same for gas furnaces. Short cycling the Heat-pumps is a huge no-no. Our 3 ton's start current 83 amps. short cycle just runs up the electric bill.

When you get this all installed and running you will love it.!!!

If you are thick-skinned enough to build your own I would use a 3 Ph compressor and use a Variable Frequency Drive. for soft starts and adjusting the loads for the 2 seasons.
The Heat-pump that I had crafted for the shop turn-out to be a most fantastic machine. Although it did test me.

Randen

I love reading the DIY geo builds on here.
This system comes pre charged as most Geo do and has 5 year warranty parts and labor. Then a 10 year parts only warranty. I don't have the knowledge to take on a build. This will be plenty of project for me.

Yes that quote is for everything every fitting loop tubing and pump center.
I just dig trenches and put it all together they even prewire it for the pump center. Fuse valves on the tubing everything.

This last quote was for a 3-ton 2 stage system. I am just going to use a little more loop pipe to help it out and keep my mini splits.

They ship the loop pipe with antifreeze in them and valves on them.
I am going to run it all under the foundation they have a pump and manifold pressure gauge air purge valve station.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1542768934

This is the Unit
https://cdn.iwae.com/media/manuals/c...ifications.pdf

My wife is so so on board because we have netzeroed a couple years. But our state loses the tax credit next year and fed tax credit goes down next year this is the time to do it.
It will never be cheaper than right now. I have to run the loop field through the horse pasture she is not thrilled with that either. We have agreed on a place to run it and fence it off. We only have one horse left.

My new little tractor is going to earn its keep.

I checked a couple other places and they were all 8 weeks out to get a system that would not work with the current tax credits. They even called the factory they only had a left return no right return so they have to build it. They were all more money also.

I just put a deposit down on the system it was in stock.
3-ton Tranquility 30 system two stage with 4 600’ pipe and pump center.
I will pay for it the first week in December.

I did a test dig and this is not going to happen with my tractor.
It is a 6' max hoe but 5' took 25 min maybe 3' long.
I can use it to dig close to the house and to the fence that is about 25’.

It will do great to fill the trench back in and level it out but there is no way it is going to do the whole dig.

It is 600’ per ton but I am going to put in 4 600’ loops. That is 600 foot more loop than is required.

Now I will have to talk to my neighbor about renting his mini excavator.
I think he has a 2' bucket so I would need to 300' trenches.
I will cover it all back up with my tractor.


I am excited but it will be a big project.

You can down load the Loop Logix Geothermal Design Software here for free. Demo version but full functional just can't save or change location. (I installed the on a very old laptop) My deep earth temp is 55 degrees. This is set to 50 but pretty close. but the weather degree days will be off so will the cost.

http://www.heatcontroller.com/produc...l-Residential/

Here are a couple reports I created for my new system.
Very cool.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1543285925

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1543285925

It will tell you how much water is in the loop.
It tell you how many loops how long.
What config you want to do.
All great info.
lots of good info for no cost.

A local person that did a DIY climate master Geothermal install. Same exact system I am buying invited me over to look at it.
It was nice to see it in operation and hear about the install.

I am not sure how good this is but I used this for my manual J
HVAC Load Calculation - Maunualj - Whole House Loadcalc

My hot water savings will be more than what is shown it does not know how good my natural gas tankless heater is $291.28 was a year worth for my gas bill. my guess is it could save me around $58 natural gas.

I have been thinking about using my greenhouse monitoring to monitor my Geothermal.
I have three zones free and some spare temp probes.
I would put one temp probe for (EWT) entering water temp and one for Leaving water temp (LWT).
The other one I would add a contactor the would let me know when to was running.

I would have to fish the line through small conduit.
I knew I should have put in bigger conduit.

The sell monitoring systems but I think this would give me enough info. For no cost.

I am getting a iGate thermostat that has all this info but it is not WiFi crazy. I am on my computer all the time so I would like to see the results real time. I keep TED up on my computer all the time so I see any power usage and solar production.

They only offer WiFi on their most expensive unit but it is almost double the cost.

I talked to a local Geo installer today super nice guy. He is going to quote just connecting my new Geo system to the ductwork.
Uninstalling the old system.

He was so helpful and would share anything I asked. He gave me loop advice and tons of advice.
We talked for 50 min he even asked me questions to see how much I read up on it. I was able to answer his questions.

He told me to put my manifold as soon as you open the crawl space door. If we needed to use a flush cart, we would not have to use it under the crawl space.

He suggested to digging two a 3’ trench 300’ foot long and putting two loops in each.
He told me exactly what soil I would have and how well it will conduct heat.

I told him my idea taking rain water from my gutters and sending that to the trenches was a good idea.

I paid for 1/2 the system today it should ship by Friday when I will pay for the balance.

As I get closer to my system shipping, I am I little nervous that 3 ton will be enough heat.
I know my AC was over sized so cooling I am not worried about that. The mini splits do an amazing job cooling at a very low cost.
I do want it to run more in the summer for humidity.

The guy that a visited local said cooling was amazing with Geo.
It is just the heating that I keep think about. (My wife does not like being cold)
It is a very big under taking that you hopefully I have running for years. Heck it has a 10-year warranty.

I may down the road close off my crawl space put plastic down and a dehumidifier. That would warm up the floors.
I have insulation under the floor would I have to take that off?

I bought a buffer tank for the Geo hot water heat.
Marathon 50 Gallon Electric MR50245
https://www.rheem.com/product/marath...nty-msr50245c/
hopefully it lasts a very long time and keep the water hot a long time.
I found a 20% off sale and free shipping I will also get a 55% tax credit on it.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1543602743

I did not add the 10K auxiliary heat coils. They are not covered under the tax credit. They don't mount in the Geo Unit and they need another breaker that my current panel does not have.
The local installer usually does not install them around here anyway.

I wouldn't be worrying about heating capacity. From the spreadsheet, it looks like the heat pump can keep up with the load down to -8 degrees. As you said, the ground is 5 degrees warmer than the software model. Plus you're burying extra pipe for the loop. If it's -8 out, mama gonna shiver just looking out the window. I'm in Kentucky, and I know it hasn't been that cold here in a few years. Didn't hit Negative digits last winter at all.

You know what to do if you want warm floors. It involves wasting a little supply air or laying more pipe to put heat there. As with everything insulation, more is better if you do it correctly.

Pinballooking

As I had mentioned we are heating 3600 sq.ft. with 3 ton water to water in a Canadian climate. Don't be nervous.!!! Even added to that is a 600 sq ft garage. But we only maintain that at 60 Deg F

I must admit when we first installed it I was deeply concerned about the run time. Its still running an hour latter Still!! two & three still??? Ok it stopped. This is completely normal My slab temps are held within a degree C. AND the house is very cosy.!! Then I give my head a shake at peak rates thats only $0.72 OK
On those extreme cold windy nites where the pump runs almost non stop, thats only $6.00 but we are still cozy.

Its a great system and you have solar PV.!!! Next you will want batteries and an inverter to do it all yourself.!!

Randen

Thanks guys.
Randen Yes your 3 ton system working in very cold temps helped me decide to go with a 3 Ton system. What is your loop configuration?

My system should be to the transfer station on Monday. I am getting two digging quotes this weekend.
I have priced rental mini track hoe but I don’t have a truck big enough to tow it. I am booked with work and the system needs to be live before the first of the year.
It looks like I will be just covering the trenches back up with my tractor.

I just met the excavator guy he said if it does not rain to much today he can dig tomorrow.
1K to 1.1K two 270’ trenches three foot wide 6’ deep. I get 55% tax credit off that. My cost after tax credit is $495 for the digging.

I will use my tractor to dig the 30’ feet to our house and to fill in the dirt.
I am happy with that the other estimate was $2,100 more than I wanted to pay.

The excavators bucket was 4 ft wide so the pipe was laid two loops on the bottom of the trench. so the tube were 16" apart.

Randen

How long were your loops? How deep were they?

The installers dug three trenches 6' deep about 350' long because that was the with of the property. So 6 loops 350' = 4200. which is about 7 ton (600'/ton) But my memory thinks that one trench was a little shorter.. But for sure a little over 6 ton.

We had people from my wife's work visiting last nite. The heated floors where a big hit. Lots of questions. Geo Thermal----How does that work??

Randen

We had to deal with a lot of rain on Saturday and Sunday a couple morning showers. But after lunch we were able to dig. One 270' trench 3' wide 6' foot deep is done. He has a 13 ton mini Ex it is the biggest mini you can get petty strong.

I have started digging from the house to the fence 4' wide 5'-6' deep.
I sure wish I had bought a 16" bucket but I am getting it done with the 10" bucket.

I guy that is digging has a day job digging for someone else so he will come after work to finish.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1543813293

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1543813293

My equipment was going to be here today they put it on the wrong semi trailer.
At least it stayed at the transfer station.
It is still in Ohio they assure me that it will be here tomorrow.

I talked to a nice lady today and she said she would get my equipment put on a truck to Knoxville. Then they have a driver coming here from Knoxville so I can pick it up tomorrow.
I just tracked it and it did indeed get put on a truck heading to Knoxville this is a good sign.

They got it figured out it is at the trucking terminal. I should be able to pick it up later today.

I picked my geothermal unit and 2,400 HDPE pipe. There was some minor damage but not bad at all.
They came back today and dug all but 75’ of the trench one more after noon and they will be done.
I had someone out today to bid taking out my natural gas heat and just setting in the Geo doing the duct-work.
He is going to big high I don’t think he wants to do just a small part

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1543976317

It was dark when they quit.

I dug under the foundation and up into the crawl space started a 6 am. All hand digging in very hard clay. That was a pain in the butt it is done. I then mounted the manifold in the crawl space.

I have the first to loops done and the return lines staked 2’ up the trench. it was a muddy mess. They finished digging the trench so I can now install the next two loops then start back filling.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544057670

Water is about a foot deep in places.
I was dark when I finished so I did not get any pictures. I was a wet cold muddy mess. Red wet clay everywhere.

I have all my loops run. I have about 200 foot covered back up 2’ – 3’. The mini Ex went home today.
It ended up being 1K for all the digging.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544146375


Here is what you look like after running two loops.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544146375

My sub compact tractor did a great job partly filling in the trench.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544292442

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544292442

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544292442

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544292442

I was able to get over 400’ of the trenches partly filled in before the 3 days of rain we are having.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544292562

I took the packing off the Geo Unit.
I ordered and was invoiced for Desuperheater hot water feature but it does not have one installed.

This is such a bummer I have a lifetime warranty hot water buffer tank being trucked shipped it WAS $924 tank.

I sent place I bought Geo Unit form an email and a Voice mail.

Nick the owner just called me he said not to worry he would make it right and get me the unit with the Desuperheater hot water feature ship this one back. No cost to me. Can't ask for better service than that. Anyone can sell you something it what they do when things don't go as planed is whats important.

I had a guy quote me putting in my Geo he wanted to replace all my duct work and wanted 6K to do the job. I almost fell out of my chair laughing.
He wanted 3K upfront before starting work. I would never do that ever.

I had another company come out to give a quote you could tell he did not want the job and I left him a message couple times he did not even give me a quote.

Another company was going to come yesterday and today never showed up.
Never called to say they would not show up. if they treat me this way before the sale just think how they would be after getting paid.:rolleyes:

It looks like I will be installing the unit myself. It is 357 pounds I will need to put down plywood in the crawl space and use moving dollies to get to the location about 25’ into the crawl space.

I have pallet forks for my tractor I should be able to put it in the doorway of the crawl space.

I have never done ductwork before other than taping and applying mastic.
I watched some youtube videos making custom plenum it did not look that hard. I saw a place in Greenville that you could order a custom one made maybe I will check into that.

I might be able to take out my AC coil and use that box to connect to the supply side.
Anyone that has done this type of work I am open to suggestions.
Or point me to a good how to.

I have read that loops like moisture. Will my loops should be very happy.

We have had a big storm some snow and lots of rain.

The trench was dug about 30’ to long. I was trying to beat the weather and just cover the loops.

I did not fill it in where it was to long. I just back filled where the my loop lines were.

The top of the trench is 6’ deep with no dirt filled in I put a blue line in the picture so you can tell where there is 6' deep water.

The pictures are the same trench. crazy how much water is in that trench.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410432

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410432

I took pictures of the inside the Geothermal unit.
Hopefully someone is interested in seeing the inside of this unit.

I did what your guys would have done I took it apart to make sure everything looks good.
When I get the one with the Desuperheater hot water feature I will seal up some of the insulation.

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410971
The control board it is on a hinge
https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410971

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410971

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410971

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410971

https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410971

ECM blower motor
https://ecorenovator.org/forum/attac...1&d=1544410971

Nick at TerraSource has been great to deal with. The customer service has been excellent.
https://www.geothermalheaters.com/
He has me a new Unit coming on the truck now.
I always say any company can take your money for a sale but when there are bumps in the road it is how they handle it is important.

Very happy so far.

I put in my own geo about 9 years ago. I went with a split geo with a natural gas furnace as backup/auxiliary heat. If I had to do it over again, I would do it exactly the same.

Mine is 38000 btu (3 ton) 2 stage waterfurnace that I bought on ebay. It had been damaged in shipping, so I got it cheap enough.

I used a QT zero pressure flow center so I didn't need a flush cart. I have 3 slinky loops, 1000' long each.

I have some pictures on youtube if you would like to look at it.

Search for "geothermal heatpump install" under djastram.

It is interesting that had you taken your mini splits and added a simple pump like a taco 009 and https://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1bzjxK...pg_350x350.jpg this freon loop you could have had them installed for a few hundred. and POOF could have saved MANY thousands

I watched your video. You were in the mud also. Nice install. How has it been working. Do you have to use much natural gas heat? How many sq foot are you heating?

Unless you must have nat gas for cooking, one area you can really save some money and headache is buy getting rid of it totally.

You can always keep a space heater around for just inncase, or eventually hook up/add 5 or 10k of resistance for that rare need of ever.

You can also add a small instant electric water heater inline, in case your hot water tank needs a lil extra push. I have the same water tank and its nice - you could try to rely on the upper heating element as well for a little backup but it won't keep up really; would only be useful if desuperheater or geo system is totally down.

You'll prob not find anyone who just wants to run the ductwork as its a lot of labor, and they make their money overcharging on the equipment.
You could maybe ask to see if you can get a reputable place to just design the ductwork, do the load calcs, pay for their knowledge. You might find a place that specializes in energy reteofits, does blower door testing and such that may do it, and add in the testing and other services like thermal imaging, etc to make it worthwhile.

Nice work on the build so far.

Next is to think about adding a humidifier and which, and looking at air filter systems.

We have natural gas vent free logs we use when the power is out in the winter.
I have backup heat for may green house is a closed loop natural gas vent free hot water tank.
Right now, we have a natural gas tankless water heater it runs $20 a month total gas and meter fee.
The Geo could save enough to switch to electric hot water with Geo supplying some of that hot water.
I will have to get some pictures I took the day off spent it on the tractor filling in the trenches.
My new hot water holding tank made it here.