Electric Vehicle (Nissan Leaf experience/impressions)
 

Do not know if this is the correct sub-forum to post this , or not ? Moderators , feel free to move it to a more correct sub-forum .

We bought a used 2012 Nissan Leaf SV . This weekend we finished installing a 240 VAC EVSE - power station .

Wifey is still trying to figure out out . It has a lot of safety features that you have to satisfy before the Leaf will " work " .

Apparently the doors have to be shut and the seat belts buckled . Car unplugged . Foot on the brake & do not know for sure , what else .

This is a strictly in town only car .

God bless
Wyr

Congrats! Post a picture. How many miles on it?

Photos

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/attach...152605_027-jpg


Taken last week with the Level 1 EVSE

God bless
Wyr

Sub compact car resale values are taking a dump.
If they fall any lower I might get one.
When some one figures out a way to charge with a generator while driving I would seriously consider one.

They have it is called a Chevy Volt.
When you run out of EV miles the generator kicks in and gets you home or across country.

I refer to a Volt as a Plug-in hybrid . There are a few other brands , also .

The used Volts I saw on line were too pricey . The other brands pretty much non-existent in my neck of the woods .

Chevy sells the Spark EV as a compliance vehicle in California and 2 - 3 other states . None of them , used , were closer than 800 - 1200 miles away & you would have to tow it home or ship it . :-(

I do not think our little 2015 Chevy Sonic 1.8l automatic has the beans to tow a Spark EV home .

Had my Wifey plug the Level 2 EVSE in & start charging it . This last weekend I crawled through our dusty , dirty attic ( with rock wool insulation ) to run # 8 / 2 W/G Romex for a 40 amp 240 VAC circuit to the EVSE .

God bless
Wyr

The Volt uses 100% battery power at all speeds until it runs out of battery power (exactly like a full EV). Then the generator kicks in and it can run more like a Plug-in hybrid.

At this point the only other car that acts like the Volt is the BMW I3 EV that has the REX 2 cylinder range extender motor. But it cost twice as much.
Both of these cars do exactly what oildpan4 wants.

I think it is great there are good deals out there on any EV’s.
Very cool to have another Leaf owner on the forum

Buying the Leaf , I went into it fully knowing it would be an in town only car .

For out of town , we have the Chevy Sonic ICE car . Recently went to visit family , 400 miles , going , 400 miles returning + about 200 miles while we were there . It gets 34 - 36 on the highway with A/C running . With $ 2.00 gas , not too expensive .

I am curious to see what happens to our electric bill . Charging the Leaf . No solar or wind energy . 100% on the grid . Last month we paid $ 97.09 for 900 kw . And of course we are running A/C . We have been having some temps at 100 or above . So the bill would be increasing , any way , w/o the Leaf .


Photo is with the Leaf charging Level 1 120 VAC .

God bless
Wyr

31,000 - 32,000 Miles .

God bless
Wyr

Nice lots of miles ahead of you.

Circuits are not intended to run continuously at more than 80% of rated amps. For a 40 amp circuit this is 32 amps.
Will the charger regularly draw 32 amps or more?
You also have to derate the wire for the higher temperature found in up near the roof.
So now what you thought was a 40 amp circuit becomes more like 30 amps or less.
This is important because fixed wiring causes about 70% of fires in residential structures.

An EVSE is not much more than a junction box with a disconnect in it and a pigtail or cord reel that plugs into the EV. The actual charging system is built into the vehicle. As such, it is useless to spend big bucks on a super duty EVSE if your vehicle will never draw full rated power.

I remember hearing that the early Leafs have a smallish charging system. They were upgraded in 2013 or 2014. I don't remember the exact figures, but I believe the older models only charge at 15 or 20 amps. I'm not sure if the high-cap charging is standard on the new models, but it is 30 amp.

Yes , I am aware of all of that . I have over 35 years in the trade .

I also know many fires that can not be determined as to cause , are blamed on electrical . Every one accepts that explanation , nods their heads and are satisfied . And down the road they go .

I think our 2012 Leaf has a 3.3 kw charger . When you do the math ( Ohm's Law ) that comes out to 13.75 amps at 240 VAC 1 phase . Continuous duty is 3 hours or more . Not sure if it takes 3 hours to charge , but throw that in and I get 17.1875 amps . And not sure if the charger starts to taper off when the battery approaches 100% ?

I think the 2016 Leaf has a 6.6 kw charger . So , that would be 34.375 amps . Still OK on # 8/2 W/G Romex and a 40 amp Circuit Breaker .

If , at some point I get a newer Leaf with the 6.6 kw charger , I will be OK .

And still OK if you derate the ampacity of the cable for elevated temperature .

The Chevy Bolt specs indicate a 7.2 kw charger . This gives a 30 amp draw at 240 VAC -> 37.5 amps . Might or might not have issues due to elevated temperatures . If I should ever buy a Bolt ?

But , I am pretty sure the GE Watt Station has the capability to change a jumper on the control board to step it down as far as output ?

Jumper J21

for 30A Circuit
Optional position C … connect other end of wire to position #4 and the DuraStation will provide a duty cycle to the car indicating that only 24A may be drawn. This position should be used when installing the DuraStation on a 30A branch circuit.

Or , I could use the # 8/2 W/G as a pull cable & pull a new # 6/2 W/G . I had the # 8/2 W/G on hand & it will be sufficient for the foreseeable future .

God bless
Wyr

I bought the EVSE capable of operating on a 40 amp Circuit Breaker , so I would be OK if I , at some time ended up with an EV that required that capacity .

Very little cost difference in the EVSE . Almost no cost difference in my cost to self install .

If I never need a 40 amp circuit , no harm done .

God bless
Wyr

13 amps, ha you could have wired that on a 12 gauge circuit.
So I take it you are planning on getting something with bigger charger at some point or charging 2 vehicles like this or you like to over wire?

I tend to over wire stuff too. The 240v circuits I wired in for welders, plasma cutters and air compressor are all sized for continuous duty.

You never can tell .

For me , it may turn out to be an expensive lark . Or I may fall head over heals for EV's .

As I said , it cost me very little more to go with an EVSE , wire & Circuit Breaker that support 40 amps .

God bless
Wyr

Bigger wire is more efficient due to smaller resistive losses. A couple of percent more energy ending up where it belongs translates to more miles per electric bill. You know the deal. The heavier than absolutely necessary wire pays you back over time.

I generally think of it in terms of voltage drop .

But , it also involves distance . But , in this case , the distance was not significant .

God bless
Wyr

I really like your Leaf. Congratulations!

I'm curious if the Leaf was always in your local area, and what kind of range does it have? Where I work (see profile), getting permission to plug-in is just not possible, ever. The used Leaf pricing I see around here is very attractive though.......

Evidently , Nissan sells the Leaf nation wide . Since I was looking at the used market , it was hit or miss . The next big towns around us tend to be around 2 hours away , give or take .

We looked at one SE of us & did not buy . Ended up buying one N of us . A few days ago I received an email that there is now a used Leaf , local .

Have I posted about the battery degrading with heat ?

If not & if you are interested , ask .

Brand new , they are suppose to be around 80 miles for the older ones w/ 24 kwh battery . Newest ones have a 30 something kwh battery & are said to have 100 mile range or a little more .

Mine shows around 73 miles on the GOM ( Guess O Meter ).

God bless
Wyr

And, yes I am interested in how the battery degradation issue I read so much about on the Leaf Forum affects you.

There sometimes seems to be an exaggeration of facts, and from people who may not have any "skin-in-the-game."

Thanks!

Brand new , they are suppose to be around 80 miles for the older ones w/ 24 kwh battery . Newest ones have a 30 something kwh battery & are said to have 100 mile range or a little more .

Mine ( 2012 model with 31,000 - 32,000 miles ) shows around 73 miles on the GOM ( Guess O Meter ).

The battery pack does not have an active cooling system . Heat degrades the battery . To some degree . More heat , degrades faster .

My Leaf has 10 battery bars . Are you up to speed on the battery bars ?

The newer Leafs are suppose to have the Lizard battery that is more tolerant of heat .

God bless
Wyr

Without researching all over again right now, IIRC, the Leaf had 12 bars when new. The first bar falls away at ~ 12 - 13% capacity loss and then subsequent bars at ~ 6.5% increments.

So, if your car had ~ 80 miles range new, then you should have somewhere between 60 - 65 miles max range now, based on much of bar 10s capacity has been used up.

A quote I remember along the way {sadly, without remembering the source} said to expect 70% available battery capacity at 8 (or 10?) years normal usage.

Additionally, I read to expect only 70% of good weather range in cold weather conditions where you needed to run the heater, regardless of who makes the EV.

And, thanks! for the picture with the labels to tell me exactly which display items are the capacity bars.

Best I remember 8 bars represent 70% capacity .

Being summer , the climate control is set on A/C . You can watch the GOM & switch the climate control off and on & the number on the GOM changes .

Have no experience , yet , with heater .

God bless
Wyr

PDF File .

Quick reference .

God bless
Wyr

THANKS! That should give me something to pore over.....

More pdf's .

God bless
Wyr

A few years ago I was not sure who had the best battery management Leaf or Volt.

Leaf simple air cooled or Volts water cooled and heated battery packs.
In warm climates Chevy’s Volts water cooled and heated battery packs win hands down.

It would be interesting to see a study in moderate climates because water cooled is more expensive and complicated.

From what I have found out on the internet , the Leaf battery works well in more northern climates .

The class action lawsuit was brought by Leaf owners in Arizona . They were experiencing accelerated battery degrading .

I can not speak very much as far as the Volt battery situation . I have , however , done some research on the Chevy Spark EV . ( It may be similar to the Volt ? )

The Spark EV has an active thermal management system for the battery . Dexcool GM orange coolant is user to hear or cool the battery . If cooling is needed , the A/C compressor is run , cooling the Dexcool , which is circulated through the battery cooling system . I am guessing , when the battery needs warming , the Dexcool is warmed , bit it is just a guess . There may be heating elements installed in the battery pack .

My understanding is the Spark EV battery is not affected very much by heat .

Evidently , this thermal management system works well . As such , I do not know , but suspect the up coming Chevy Bolt will probably use some form of this system ?

The Bolt is projected to have 200 mile ( or better ) range .

God bless
Wyr

PS It seems some variations of lithium battery chemistry is more heat tolerant than others . I think the 2015 Leafs got a newer " lizard " battery which is suppose to be more heat tolerant ?

The early 24 kwh batteries that get replaced by Nissan ( whether on Nissan's dime or the customer's dime ) are suppose to be " Lizard " batteries .

Electric Vehicle
 

I'm a little late getting to the party here but I've been occupied. And yes although not really related to home energy and efficiencies but its a huge game changer for family transportation.

We now have two in our laneway and the one I'm most excited about is the Chevy S-10 EV This is the brother to the famous EV-1 that GM made back in the 1997-1998. See the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car" its an eye opener. GM made about 2000 EV-1 s and leased them to some high profile actors and people. After the leases had run out GM recalled all these perfectly operating electric vehicles and crushed them much to the dismay of the owners. WOW

GM also made about 450 S-10 EV pick-up trucks which have the same drive train. However through some bungled Lease/Purchase agreements about 50 escaped the crusher. GM had done a beautiful job with this vehicle. The motor control and thermal management is amazing. ALL, ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE THE TESLA. 20 YEARS EARLIER THAN TESLA!!!

What a head start GM had!!!

I had purchased the truck non functioning The DC-DC power supply had failed and since GM had crushed the project you can't get parts. And worst there is no technical information other than service manuals. I had replaced the DC-DC with an off the shelf unit however through the CAN-Buss where all components communicate the new DC-DC still wouldn't allow the truck to operate.

I now had to take the long and difficult road of replacing all the circuits with our own. The motor drive was a DIY kit but the IGBT (big power transistors) drivers where designed by a good friend of mine. The onboard charger is a from a chevy volt. The paddle charge was changed to the current tech J1772 so I can charge the truck anywhere.

The batteries which everyone worries about after 17 yrs. Still have life. The truck came already converted from lead acid to the famous. Ovonic cells (Nimh) The trucks range is not what I would like so I'm going to change them out to two chevy volt packs. But still after 17yrs a viable battery who knew. I'm planning to have a 120 mile range per charge.

The truck is extremely peppy it will spin the tires and do a burn-out. Boy if I had one of these when I was a kid!!! Gotta Love the torque of an electric motor. I've kept all the original housings so if you open the hood you cannot tell its my circuit boards inside. Completely OEM appearance.

The newer tech may allow me to tune the motor drive a little better and the large transistors maybe a little more efficient than the original circa 1997 IGBTs.

Now maybe another question fellow Ecorenovators may wonder the increase in the electric power bill. I have been tracking my bills since 2008 and since I've been charging the two vehicles I can't see any change in-fact: with my constant efforts towards home efficiency my bill for the last 6 months is lower than many proceeding years. I know I'll raise a few eyebrows but its like I'm driving for free. My gasoline bill for a year is approx. $4000.00

If you have been on the fence EV s are great and you'll never regret having one.

Randen

Those paddle chargers were such a stupid idea.

Take a bunch of pictures and post them up. That vehicle is practically a museum piece.
I personally would like to see how and where the batteries were mounted.

What is a paddle chargers ?

God bless
Wyr

Think of something like a ping pong paddle with an inductive pad built in. Basically the Idea was to not have a direct wired socket, to allow for easy water proofing to greatly reduce the shock hazard. This is Toyota's version: Charging the RAV4 EV

Electric Vehicle
 

A paddle charger was merely a method to charge a vehicle without an electrical connection (an inductive charge) The paddle contained a coil which slid into the front of the vehicle where the slot had complimentary coils and a alternating current was applied to the paddle coil and like an air-core transformer provided current for charging the battery pack without an electrical connection.

It was actually quite neat and worked well. The vehicle side was liquid cooled and provided 6 kw of energy so about twice that of the volt and leaf.

For the GM EV-1 the odd trouble of proximity of the paddle in the car not confirming (ready to charge) and the car wouldn't charge. Otherwise very cool tech. This could have been repaired in the second generation of vehicle. But hey why would a huge automotive manufacture go to those lengths- Just crush-it

Had the EV-1 went into full production paddle chargers could have been standard like the J1772 or Tesla connectors.

I have 2 of the paddle chargers but they are obsolete. Public chargers have the J1772 But in the very new future they will become obsolete because they cannot carry enough current to charge an EV at any speed that some one would be happy. A Tesla or any EV plugged into a public J1772 or level 2 charger would get you 18 miles per hour charge.

Look at it this way. If you took the Mrs. out to dinner, plug the car in and after 2 hrs. you might get enough charge to get you back home.

Over night in your garage is fine for a level 2 and most homes electrical service will be OK to support this without any investment into a larger service panel.

Tesla and Chademo have this thought out a lot better. Tesla almost 400 amp DC supercharge gets you about 220 miles in about 15 min. Now that's how it should be!! Chademo a little less I believe but I'd have to look up the spec. The new batteries handle this current without breaking a sweat. Ideal for public fast charge but for a home not necessary.

But maybe when we start with home battery systems coupled with solar. A battery system could dump all sorts of current quickly into the family EV.


Randen

Think of the most inefficient, indirect, slowest way to charge an electric vehicle.
That's a paddle charger.
I think when I build my own electric vehicle I would use an L14-30 plug.

Ok L14-30

But That's only 30 amp. "Level 2 charge rate" and your missing the pilot signal connections to close the contactor and also to prevent you from driving away with this plug in your car.

I have a project charger "stalled" thats input is 240 v 100 amp so 24 kw charger, so about 110 mile per hour rate. My industrial shop panel will handle that but not my home. Totally Not necessary. I charge while I sleep like my cell phone. So both are ready in the morning. The trouble comes when your out traveling around and you need to get home. Waiting at a level 2 public charger to load 100 miles is 3 hrs or more. Not so practical!!

If your just after an EV, a used Leaf is less than the cost of a prismatic Lith. battery pack. I needed a small truck and Tesla is a few years away from building a truck. Building your own EV is a HUGE project.

Randen

There are no DCFC ( DC Fast Charge ) locations in our town or anywhere within 100 miles .

There are some , about 120 -130 miles away , but they are Tesla Superchargers . But they will not work on our Leaf .

Not even at the local Nissan dealer .

God bless
Wyr


So , Level 2 is as good as it is going to get .

Wyrtwister

Thats what I'm getting at. Level 2 chargers are not up-to the task. To be a truly useful vehicle a faster more powerful charge is what we need to be more what a gas car had presented. Tesla has it with their supercharge 15 mins gets you there and back. The installations of public charge stations with a level 2 (J1772) are already obsolete.

The battery tech with the Volt and Leaf can handle the riggers of high power charging but the infrastructure isn't there and is so last century.!!

Imagine a fast charge for a Nissan Leaf 24 kph battery with a Tesla like supercharge would be only minutes. LIKE or quicker than getting gasoline!!!

And there is another rub. The Nissan Leaf cannot accept the Tesla supercharge. Elon Musk has stated he would allow other manufactures to utilize Tesla charge structure if they would help invest in the deployment of the systems. And why are they sitting on their hands??? Pony up, make the cars more useful. Leafs are nice cars. Imagine being able to take long trips with them??

Randen

We bought the Leaf as an in town only car . No illusions .

So far , it is working for my wife .

Also , the Leaf battery ( at least the early 24 kwh models ) is said not to tolerate frequent DCFC very well . The batteries are vulnerable to heat .

Level 2 works pretty well for home charging . Probably kinder on the battery .

God bless
Wyr

Not quite. A DCFC ramps up and down it's charging at the beginning and end of the charge cycle, depending on battery charge. A Leaf at a DCFC would probably take about 50-60 minutes to fully charge. Of course that's not how you would actually use a Leaf most of the time. The majority of charging would be done at home and/or work where you have plenty of time, and don't need fast charging, and there is enough range in its battery to do the vast majority of all in-town driving. Where charge times matter is for long distance driving, and the Leaf just does not have the range for that. Tesla's range sort of works for this as you can eat while the car is charging, so for quite a few trips you spend the same amount of time or less getting to your destination.