Conservation in the home is meaningless
 

Yeah, I know, I worked for PIRGs all over the country and GreenPeace. They all try to make you think that you tiny little personal contribution means something when everybody does it and ... oh why can't everybody recycle their garbage...

It's lies. Until the large corporations are ordered to recycle it means nothing. Until the Hotels are ordered to conserve water, it means nothing.

Until the large agri-corps are ordered to stop killing our poor people with pesticides and laziness, it means nothing.

Don't fall for the lies of this "green" movement. It is created and run by the corporations that you should be rising up against.

They are preempting your action, which you are not taking. Duh

You are all stupid f'ing cows that follow the chute to hell, or highwater, or just pian outrage... which is how they like to keep us.


STOP IT YOU STUPID HUMANS! YOU HAVE LITTLE TIME.

I'd have to disagree pretty much completely. Not only does conservation at home save me a good chunk of money, but you also have to start somewhere to see the effect spread. It all starts with educating people on the effects of what they do.

Hotels cater to what their clients want. If you don't teach people that conservation is important at home how will people have any idea that a hotel is wasting water at a rediculous rate? How will the clients or management know? They won't, and that means they'll do things like they've always been done and not even think twice about it. Over the past couple of years I've seen hotels start to use water conservation (hang up your towel = don't wash it every day), and shower heads with non-rediculous flow rates. To say no progress has been made here would be a mistake.

I'm not sure about New Mexico, but businesses here all recycle a lot of stuff. All the offices I've been in have paper recycling. I work at a place that does a lot of work with steel and of course we recycle the scrap, its worth money.

Lastly, if you are going to rant that is fine. But, do not insult the members of this forum.

The result of conservation, my house:

Winter 2009 to 2010 Natural gas usage highest two months usage is pretty much the same to my usage in the trailing 12 months.

Electricity and gas costs combined, including pesky ~$10.50 monthly service fees for both come out to $700/year total. 2200 sq ft house in an area where it gets down to -20f in the winter on a yearly basis and where we have about 10 days of around -10f.

Pretty good for a house with a non-energy star refrigerator, cost sucking electric dryer, 76% efficient furnace, and a 26 year old air conditioner.

Conservation: Still meaningless? If I were not useful, my costs would be substantially higher.

My complaining about large companies and corporations wasting too much would be worthless if I myself didn't conserve and recycle.

One day when I was a boy, my grandmother took me to the park. As we walked around the pond I picked up a stone from the path to throw it into the water. My grandmother turned, stopped me and said, "Don't throw that stone into the water. If everyone threw a stone into the pond there wouldn't be a pond."

I am only one tiny stone. But tiny stones are important.

Conservation in the home is meaningless ???!!
 

Really Dirtflinger! You may have selected the wrong site for opinions like that. Did you read the tittle, "Eco-Renovators". For our household we have saved about $5000.00 /year by switching to GSHP and Solar Hotwater. For the heating of my business we saved $3000.00 this past heating season by the means of a homemade ground source heat pump that I learned to build here. The large corporation that used to supply heating oil is no longer stopping here. Locally there are (corporate) wind turbines and solar farms providing Clean electricity that I use in part to operate the GSHPs. Do you realize that some automotive manufactures have started making electric cars. Ford Focus,Nissan Leaf,Chev Volt(hybrid)and the famous Tesla. Lets keep up the momentum. If you buy and drive these cars, heat/cool with Heat pumps and mount solar on your home the corporations will do well, employing people and move away from burning dinosaurs.:thumbup:

Randen

Sure large corporations are using more energy in a single building then I do in my single house, but a percentage of what they are doing is being done for me, a grocery store is selling food to 1,000's of people, so just like a bus uses more fuel then a compact car, if you fill the buss up it uses less fuel per person then the best car on the road and if we all push for improvements both at home and at work then we make a huge impact!
In the last 3 years I've cut both my heat bills in half and my electric bills while adding charging an electric car in to the mix, allowing me to save enough money that I have a pretty great life style on a part time job and I'm not lacking anything or making do without, I'm just using energy in better ways.
While I agree that we should make sure that we use our quota of energy so that those people who do have kids don't have anything to pass on to their children, I'm just to cheap to go along with that.

That's inaccurate. Private users/homes account for about 40-50% of all energy consumed in the U.S. Passenger vehicles use most of the oil in the U.S. (probably 20+%) and about half off all the electricity generated (another ~20%), plus whatever is required for heating.

P.S. I imagine this would be a great angle for someone running a "false flag" operation on behalf of some collection of fossil fuel companies.

Large corporations are made of nonhuman psychopaths....
Oh wait, actually they are comprised of you and I.

Maybe the net benefits of my eco-renovation projects aren't financially significant, but I'm planting the seeds. My grandchildren know what my solar panels do, they know what the blue box and green boxes are for, and they know about reducing fuel needs by watching the thermostats and limiting our vehicle use.

It may take a generation or two to happen, but one day these kids (and yours) will be the decision makers who take eco concerns to the next level. I will have done my job if they use what they are learning now!

P.S. It may be just my sense of humour, but is there something Freudian about your choice of username?

Conservation in the home is meaningful, if you save money.
 

In my case, I may not be saving a ton of money, but just I like doing DIY stuff.
If it's easy and doesn't turn into a boring 'job', it kinda feels like a fun hobby to me.

I'm not the only person that's not overly worried about saving the earth..

I read a 'free sample' of a new book the other day..
Amazon.com: The New Leviathan: How the Left-Wing Money-Machine Shapes American Politics and Threatens America's Future eBook: Jacob Laksin, David Horowitz: Kindle Store
I was surprised and saddened to see exactly who finances America's 'Green' movement.

It's really not about them wanting to 'save the earth'.. Most of them just want power and money!!

Here's a link for more information:
Environmentalist - Discover the Networks


Check out this amazing map..
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/T...ord=greenpeace

It takes a few seconds to load, then click on the names with '$' dollar signs beside them,
to see where they get their money..

I didn't realize that working to reduce CO2 and working to reduce the senseless consumption of resources was part of a leftist-inspired plot to undermine america.

Never before in history has the destruction of a mighty empire been so sensible, comfortable and convenient.

Thank you for your valuable insight.

-AC

Is that a typo, or do you think of America as america? :rolleyes:


There is a massive interconnected network of parties that seem to be
exchanging (laundering?) a LOT of money between each other.

I find it hard to believe they have so much money.
Kinda makes conservatives look like the 3rd world poor.

With that kind of money, comes total political power.
We will have exactly the kind of leftist government the people in the network are seeking.

So, it's pretty much settled.

Unless the money runs out. :eek:

I'm happy that you have discovered the world of unregulated banking. You're not so far behind the curve at all.

Now, if you can just understand the interlock between banking & corporations & government you might catch a glimpse of the real enemy.

You do understand that the world of banking & finance is responsible for the loss of nearly 40% of US worth since 2008, right?

That will definitely affect the future of your grandchildren... they are now in a hole they may never climb out of.

-AC

After the 2010 elections, I was hopeful things might change.
Now it seems like that was just a distant dream.

The left is going to use those billions, to crush millions of dreams..
It's something they feel has to be done.. For the greater good, and for power.

I read an interesting tidbit about that power today..
Why there are NO NEW JOBS in America « SilenceDogood2010's Blog

I was hoping things would change too, only I was hoping that the interests of the people (even you) would be given a higher priority than the interests of the elites that actually run this country.

We really don't have a country that is interested in the needs of the people. We have never really had a democracy, and never will... the constitution assures that. Don't take my word for it, go back and read the words of the founding fathers, they did not actually want anything beyond token democracy. It's all there in their own words. The constitution was brilliant, all right, it was a brilliant document to preserve the privilege of the wealthy ruling class... and why shouldn't it, it was wealthy elites that wrote it. They never wanted people like you to gain appreciable power, and you never will.

The super rich run this country, both parties.

Neither you, nor any of your descendants have any chance of rising into the ranks of the super rich. In fact, you will never have the chance of even meeting them, or even seeing where and how they live.

The politicians, both parties are not in charge, the super rich are. The politicians of both parties obey the wishes of the super rich. The reason for two parties is to preserve the illusion that the populace has a choice.

The dice are loaded, the deck is stacked.

Politically, your only hope is that in the future, you and your descendants will lose even more power that they already have.

That is the only dream that will actually come true.


My advice is to put your energies into your EcoRenovation projects, that is something that is actually useful to you.

All of your right-wing posts are a waste of space and everyone's energy... especially your own.

-AC

The way it looks to me, the left in America has been taken over by the super rich.
For whatever reason, they have billions to spend on their task.

Funders - Discover the Networks

Whereas the right has millions.. It's a sick joke. Very depressing.

I would like to get back on my projects, but I've been slowed way down with a very sore back..
It's been weeks, and it just won't go away!
So, I just sit around reading the news and getting more depressed.

Humm, maybe a beer will cheer me up.. :thumbup:


Edit: ~~~~
Lucky for us that CO2 pollution is going down..
USA CO2 emissions may drop to 1990 levels this year
Otherwise it might get really hot this summer!

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpre...ne2012_eia.png

Don't forget to take in the sunset tonight. It should be beautiful.

I vote for this being the best post in the thread. Could the OP make a poll?

Here's an idea! Maybe it ain't right/left, maybe it's super-rich versus everyone else?

The only thing I've seen is that legislators on both sides seem to cowed to set the clock back to the 50s in terms of the tax code. If it was good enough for the greatest generation, it's good enough for me.

For now, we'll just have to settle for the tax-the-rich tax code..
Also called the “Buffett Rule” or a Class-warfare distraction gimmick.

Some folks think the “Buffett Rule” could bring in $46.7 billion over 10 years..
(11 and a half days of deficit spending over 10 years)

Tax the rich, hurt the economy | Conservative News, Views & Books

But, by lowering the Hit zone to those making over $250k it's going to be a bit more..
Maybe enough to pay for 2 or 3 weeks of out-of-control government spending.?.

But, the numbers make no difference, it's all about getting re-elected,
and then what? Rearranging the deck chairs?

It's a great angle isn't it. The super-rich put the left the "we can't cut spending" team, and the right on the "we can't raise taxes" team, then watch them fight it out while they just keep on racking up the dough.

So, should we cut spending or increase taxes? The answer to that is a definite yes! And it's not just limited to taxing wealthy individuals.

In the 50s corporate taxes were about 3% of the GDP higher than they are now. That right there would cut the deficit by about $400+ billion.
Corporate Tax Rates, Then and Now | The Big Picture

If we tax people making over 100k/year at the top 1950s income tax rate that would cut the deficit by another $400+ billion.

On the flip side we can cut military spending in half, which would free up another $300+ billion, and start focusing on medical care instead of treatment like other countries do, to cut another $300 billion off of social programs, and improve the standard of living.

All told that's an easy $1.4 trillion bucks. Holy crap, we just wiped out the deficit, put America back in the black, and all we had to do was cut spending and increase taxes.

Of course, that's never gonna happen as long as the whipped Democrats and whipped Republicans keep on with their BS, but that's what elections are for. Don't drink the kook-aide about how bad taxes are for the rich or corporations, just like people on the left shouldn't about how bad spending cuts are. Guess what, just like my grandparents did in the 50s, we gotta increase taxes and cut spending, plain and simple. :thumbup:

Those 49% that don't pay any taxes aren't going to be happy.
And, all those people living off the doe aren't going to like seeing their beer money cut..

"The economy created just 80,000 jobs in June, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Friday. But that same month, 85,000 workers left the workforce entirely to enroll in the Social Security Disability Insurance program, according to the Social Security Administration."


Humm, I guess with no jobs to be had, the 'free-riders' (Nancy's term) have suddenly become Disabled. I guess it's pretty easy these days..

If only we could have done better during the last few years.
These dismal Projections were a bit too optimistic.
http://www.brookings.edu/up-front/po...rce_growth.png

Please step away from the Kool-Aid, Xringer. It is true that not everyone pays Federal Income Taxes. However, 100% of people pay taxes; sales tax, state income tax, wheel tax, property tax, sin tax, marriage license, Social Security, Medicare, etc. No matter what the pundits may say, everyone pays taxes. When you take all taxes together, all income groups pay about the same percentage of income in taxes. Most of those who don't pay Federal Income Taxes work and pay in other years. The remainder are mostly students, retired, or disabled. This brief gives more detail on why "49% pay no taxes" is such a misleading statistic.

Though a "free check" from SSDI sounds like a great deal, at about $1,100 per month on average that puts you right at the poverty line. Having lived below the poverty line in my early 20s, I can assure you that it is no fun. There wasn't much beer to be had. I can't imagine having to do it with kids. Also, it is difficult to get SSDI. About 60% of applications are rejected. Of course there is fraud and we can debate how much disability dissuades people from working, but on the whole it does what it is supposed to do--supports people who are physically or mentally unable to work a normal job.

Xringer,

It is very interesting that you single out those in the lower income brackets for blame...

In the grand economic scheme of things, you my friend, are in the lower income bracket, too.


I read about a very interesting psychology experiment recently... it was set up like a game. In the game, everyone was given some amount of game money... let's just say 10 one dollar bills. In each round of the game, everyone was required to give away some money to someone else. The game was played until a stasis was reached... then the game began again.

What was repeatedly observed in the study that at some point, some players had lots of money, some players had a 'middling' amount of money and some had no money. At that point, people with middling amounts of money could give money to those with no money (like charitable giving) or they could give money to those who already had money (who didn't really need it). Time and time again, the choice was made to give money to others with money instead of those with no money... the apparent subconscious rationale being that a 'poverty class' makes those with slightly more money feel superior to those people who they perceive to be below them.

So I see that you, true to the game, are on the warpath against 'free-riders', as you refer to them, and people who don't make enough money to pay taxes.


It is a masterstroke of brainwash that the republicans, have strong allies amongst the fundamental christians... when charity, helping the poor, has been a primary christian value from the very beginning.

I guess ignorance really is extremely durable.

-AC

Not quite true...

Those in the upper stratosphere of income pay much less than the rest of us.

The Occupy Movement has correctly identified the inequities between the 99% and the 1%... and they have also correctly identified the 0.1% and the extreme inequities there.

Do you know that the government's economic statistics regarding things like income, etc actually has an upper limit, beyond which statistics are not even kept?

That is where the 0.1% live, they made it that way, and they like it that way.

Have you been keeping tabs on Mitt Romney's off-shore wealth?

No... we are not all paying similar percentages, at all.


-AC

You are right about being taxed from every direction.. Death by a thousand cuts.. :(
But, I'll bet that a lot of those who pay no fed income tax are also getting
other benefits from state&fed (like food stamps etc) that counteract some of the the smaller day-to-day taxes, like gas tax etc.

Here, there is no direct tax on food, but the folks who supply the food get to pay a ton of taxes,
and pay the extra cost of complying with nannystate regs..
I wonder how many people in the local vegetable growers chain earn more than $250k???
And will they pass their class-warfare/punishment taxes on to me??
Yeah, I think that's pretty likely..

All that extra money from higher taxes on the 'rich' is going to be great..
I heard that over the next 10 years, we are going to get enough extra
cash to pay for our runaway gov for almost 2 weeks.. ;)

I think its time to bring this thread back on topic, or let it die. Either would be a good alternative.

"It is very interesting that you single out those in the lower income brackets for blame..."

Blame?? I don't blame poor people for not paying federal income taxes..
If they aren't asked to pay, why would they want to?
The only problem is the left is slowly moving up the bar on who is poor..
Now it seems like that might be moving up to $250k a year.. LOL!


The people I blame for the current mess are the left and their nanny state ideas..
Ideas like this one..
Stuart Varney Sounds off on Radio Ad Pitching Food Stamps to Seniors As a Health and Beauty Aid - YouTube

Yeah, you're right..

Move along people, nothing to see here...

True, AC, but those are the extreme outliers. They obviously don't play by the same rules as the rest of us, so we shouldn't expect them to pay at the same rates :rolleyes:

Those people are evil !!
But, I've heard that some of them are moving to other countries, to avoid paying taxes..?.

Why give up your American citizenship if you aren't paying any taxes to begin with??

Not only are they evil, they seem to be really stupid too !! :p

benpope,

I hope you are kidding here...

This is an extreme case, yes it is... and the people in question are extremely rich, and extremely powerful and not at all interested in any degree of fairness or equality or democracy.

Xringer keeps targeting the poor, but we all have much more in common with the poor than with the extremely rich.

I saw Noam Chomsky speak and one thing that stuck in my mind was, "...by far, the most politically astute demographic group in america is african-americans..."

At least they know who the real enemy is.

-AC

The The Billiards Room label does say, "Discuss what ever you wish."

-AC

Tongue firmly in cheek.

Daox,

In my opinion, a thread like, "Conservation in the home is meaningless" may not be a thread that is worthy of much consideration... I mean it does declare that all efforts that have been made by almost all people who have contributed to this forum, are meaningless.

Now if the thread had taken the direction that our shared eco-plight is of the magnitude that the entire culture of post-subsistance civilization is in error and must be immediately revised downward if we are to have a chance at survival, it could be taken seriously... but it never rose to that level of clarity.

So, this may be one of those rare situations where hijacking a born dead thread actually was helpful.

I would not argue that there are some valuable, earnest and exceedingly useful threads in this forum, and they are certainly made much weaker by hi-jacking.

But hey, we are in the billards room, how much lower can we sink? Maybe we need a Basement?

-AC

"Xringer keeps targeting the poor".. My next target will be women..
I'll call it my war on women. (Or did somebody already take that name)?



Anyways, back to my war on the poor.. (Those poor people really me the creeps)! :p

Massachusetts governor's welfare card restrictions would still allow purchases at nail salons and jewelry stores | Fox News

"The Democratic governor kept a provision banning EBT card purchases at places like liquor stores, cruise ships, casinos, firearms dealers and adult entertainment venues. But, Patrick shot down a measure banning the purchase of individual items, like tattoos and guns."

This seems a little strange to even be talking about the fraud in this program, when the Mass EBT cards are actually ATM cards..

Using the Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT) Card - Health and Human Services - Mass.Gov

See: 'For a Cash Withdrawal at a Cash Machine (ATM)'


I guess the way Patrick sees it, for every EBT card he gives out is another vote, he's got locked up..

I don't think all the stories about expensive tattoos, or paying the bail of a schoolyard drug dealer is going to hurt Patrick at all..

Anyways, I don't blame those poor people for buying lobster or tats with their EBT card cash.

If I had not been raised in poverty, and didn't believe going on the dole
would have been better than working for low wages,
I might have turned out the same way. Just working the system.

I've known at least a few dozen people who just work the system.
They aren't really bad people. Maybe they're just weak people..?.

I have no problem with the thread going off topic. I have found with my forum dealings that discussing politics rarely leads to any positive end. It always ends up dividing the community instead of bringing it together. I would rather avoid that as we're all here for the same reason, reducing our energy usage.

I just realized that we all agree that conservation in the home isn't meaningless, but that talking about anything remotely related to politics is...

:p

What I'm saying is that this point of view is an illusion. It gives people the impression they are doing something when they are not accomplishing a damn thing, unfortunately.

Has anyone noticed any progress because of all this home recycling? Nothing has changed and in fact things are worse.

The planet is dying because many are mislead into believing that a little recycling, a little conservation, by each person is enough.


I shouldn't have used the word "meaningless". Conservation is awesome as a way to save money and waste less. It's awesome.

But, as some movement? It's a scam to sell products people, wake up.