New heat pump saves some money..
 

We installed the Sanyo heat pump on 11/05/09 and have been using it to heat the house every day since.

I've been looking at the bills and just read the meter for December.
(Meter is read around the 20th to 23th every month).

Nov 2008 859 kWh $172
Nov 2009 632 kWh $129

Dec 2008 831 kWh $167
Dec 2009 745 kWh $150

No more resistance space heaters this year. Instead, we are using the Sanyo.

Plus, we are saving 2 or 3 gallons of oil a day too. The burner motor
is running a lot less and the circulator pumps never come on.

Oil Use:
We burn oil to heat the hot water. Our 76 gallon burner is rarely used for space heating.
The only time we have used the oil heat, is during heavy snow storms
and when the temperatures are going down below 15 degrees for more than a couple of hours..
Not using the circulator pumps, but just opening the Free-Flow valve on
the Taco check-valve. That allows limited amount of BTUs to flow up into the house.

Hybrid Mode: Oil & HP
Free-flow heating (baseboard feed using convection) works very nicely
with the Sanyo heat pump when the outside temperature is under 15 deg.

If the outdoor temp goes above 20F for a few hours at night,
the Sanyo goes into low-mode and the house starts getting
a little too warm for comfortable sleeping. (The new attic insulation is working?) :cool:

Not bad. :) Is it colder this year or last?

It was a bit colder last year.
 

According to a weather station in Bedford, a few miles from here,
and it was 2.8 degrees colder in Dec 08, and 4.2 colder in Nov 08.

Weather Station History : Weather Underground

Plus, we installed a bunch of extra insulation in the attic near the end of Nov 08.
(Which was working very well in Dec 08).


Since solar gain in this house is a big factor, I'm not sure how to get good data.
Maybe degree days take south-facing windows into consideration.?.

Does it matter much? My wife is just very happy to see lower NStar & oil bills! :thumbup:

Degree days is the best way I know of.

I think it matters a lot. It could be 2x as cold as the last year and that'd have a huge impact on bills. :)

Problems using HDD data
 

Heating degree day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Calculations using HDD have several problems. Heat requirements are not linear with temperature,[2] and heavily insulated buildings have a lower "balance point". The amount of heating and cooling required depends on several factors besides outdoor temperature: How well insulated a particular building is, the amount of solar radiation reaching the interior of a house, the number of electrical appliances running (e.g. computers raise their surrounding temperature) the amount of wind outside, and individuals' opinions about what constitutes a comfortable indoor temperature. Another important factor is the amount of relative humidity indoors; this is important in determining how comfortable an individual will be. Other variables such as wind speed, precipitation, cloud cover, heat index, and snow cover can also alter a buildings thermal response."

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...NCL/roofed.jpg

I don't have a lot of windows out front, but they are facing south.
And, when you have a day like today, where it's been just above 30 degs
for the last 4 hours with plenty of sun, it gets warm in here..
All that snow in the front yard adds a bit to the solar gain..

I just got back from the movies (Avatar 3D) and my wife had set back
the Sanyo to 68, because it was getting too hot in the living room.

Right now, it's back to 70 in here, and the Sanyo was coasting using 470 watts.
But as the sun is disappearing, the usage is slowing climbing up to 600 W.

Since this is really a Tribrid heating system, I have to look at the solar gain for last year too.
Was it cloudy much last year? :confused:

We are seeing a reduction in our power bill right now, and it seems that
running the Sanyo when it's 15 deg outdoors is still cheaper than burning oil.

The oil truck was due here on Dec 21, but I called them to delay the delivery,
because we still have 3/4 of a tank of oil. (Down from 7/8 after the last fill).

Speak of the devil !
 

The oil truck came today and delivered 73.4 gallons.
The last fill up was back on 10-19-09, 66 days ago.
That comes out to about 1.112 gallons per day. (About 1 hour burner run time).
This only slightly more than we use in the summer (for hot water).

Cost @ $2.39 a gallon is $2.65768 per day.

Last winter, we were burning between 2 and 3 gallons a day.
(Plus we were also using resistance space heaters too).

So, by not using the oil heat very much, we are seeing better than 50% savings.
And, of course we aren't using as much electricity either! :thumbup:

Sanyo performs in single digits!
 

Weather Station History : Weather Underground
The average temperature since midnight was 9.2 degrees F.

We used the Hybrid mode (oil heat in free-flow) since last night, so the Sanyo only used 2.8 kWh.
This morning at 7AM, when I set the thermostat warmer (from 66 to 68), the unit
went into a 10 minute defrost mode (flashing LED) and then started pumping out
the heat.

Edit:
After defrost mode ran, and the Sanyo seemed to be putting out some heat.
I was out of the house for a few hours, so I set the thermostat down to 66 F.
Leaving the oil heat in free-flow. Upon my return, the Sanyo didn't respond
to calls for heat. It's only drawing 700 watts peak, so it seems like the
compressor isn't turning over. Time to trouble shoot..

Dec was good, Jan was rotten..
 

Dec 2009
Day, kWh, Temps
1, 9.26, 38
2, 7.23, 44
3, 2.88, 60
4, 5.62, 49
5, 9.17, 36
6, 10.5, 27
7, 12.9, 29
8, 12.2, 29
9, 9.23, 36
10, 8.77, 32
11, 14.2, 23
12, 14.3, 24
13, 12.9, 28
14, 9.95, 37
15, 8.58, 40
16, 10.4, 29
17, 16.9, 16
18, 14.5, 16
19, 11.5, 20
20, 11.5, 21
21, 14.2, 25.3
22, 15.2, 23.3
23, 14.8, 15.2
24, 8.17, 28.7
25, 13.8, 27.1
26, 10.5, 36.2
27, 8.35, 44.6
28, 13.8, 31.7
29, 15.3, 21.0
30, 10.5, 17.0
>>>March, 2010 w/ new outdoor unit<<<
26, 8.56, 38.8
27, 13.9, 26.0
28, 9.37, 37.2
29, 7.05, 49.9


March 30, 2010 note:
On rainy or cloudy days, the power usage will be higher than normal, since there is no solar gain from the south facing windows.


It looks like we spent $67.76 on power for the heat pump in Dec.. (Ave temp 29.9F)

We had an oil delivery on 12-23-09 (see above) but used very little oil in Dec..
(One 1-1-2010, the gauge was still at 7/8. It had dropped to just under 1/2 as of 2/1/2010).

BUT, after the heat-pump broke down, the very cold month of January has been very costly.. (Ave temp 26.9F)
Weather Station History : Weather Underground


The bad news:
Today the oil man delivered 137.4 gallons of oil. $342.12

So, it seems like oil heat cost (in Jan) is about FIVE times more than we paid for running the heat pump in Dec..

According to my quickie calculation, (14 kWh per day x 30= 420 x .201=$84)
IF the heat pump had been working in Jan, it would have cost us between 80 and 90 bucks for electricity . (1/4 oil?)

We do use oil for hot water, so there would have been some oil consumed regardless.


NStar Bill info:
Last month 740 kWh ($150.40) Using Sanyo Heat pump
Current month 615 kWh ($125.93) Using oil heat.
It seems the motors on my oil burner use a good bit of electricity too.
(We have not deployed the old resistive space heaters)..

Conclusion:

A Mini-spit heat pump can save a considerable amount of energy.
(When compared to oil heat).

Once we get the Sanyo working again, I'll be a happy camper..

Note 03/26/2010:
Sanyo is working again!

Getting ready for summer!
 

As of 03/26/2010, the Sanyo has been repaired and is working well.
It's starting to get a little warmer now (44.6F on average) ,
so the average kWh is down to about 9kWh a day.
$1.80 a day isn't too bad for the amount of heat we are getting.. :)
Most of the time, it's at 72F and we sleep with it set at 68 these days.
If it's too warm in the bedrooms, we just close the door to keep out the heat.

We are using a little more power at night, because we have started to leave
the den doors open 24-7. The den has a lot of glass (and heat loss),
but we find it gets used more if we keep it warmer. (Our best TV is in there)!:D

I have turned down the Aquastat on the boiler to it's summer hot water settings of 120F min & 140F max. (Less leakage cycling).


I hear it might get up into the 80s for the weekend.. So, I can do some AC mode testing..


The power log that I'm trying to keep up to date is at:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/projec....html#post5090

If were not for the floods in the basement, this would be a much more enjoyable spring..

I'm curious. What happened to the Sanyo that put it out of commission for so long? I would think a unit that's only about a year old would not have had such a failure.

It failed around the last day of December. I think the total run-time was about 45 days..

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/projec....html#post5426


The day before I was supposed to get a replacement unit (outdoor unit), Sanyo USA sold
all 70 units they had in stock to some dealer.. So, I had to wait for the next shipment and customs delays etc.

I have my own ideas about what may have caused the leak, but the odds are it was just a weak spot in the copper, caused by a tad too much heat..
R410A runs at a higher pressure than the old refrigerants and that could be a factor..

From what I've been able to find out, this Sanyo model line (Inverter using R410A) has been very popular around the world for around 5 years now, and seems to be very reliable.

Sanyo power usage for April 1 to 15 ~ helped by solar gain.
 

We are still using the Sanyo for heat every day, but the power consumption
has dropped drastically as the days get warmer.

Many of these first 15 days of April have been very sunny. So, after a cold
night and morning, we are getting an extra bonus of solar warming
from about 9AM until about 6PM.
Even from a higher angle of radiation, this Springtime solar warming
is more effective than we get in the winter.
This maybe partly due to east and west-facing windows, which do not
help much with Solar-Gain during the winter.



December 2009:
Day of Month / kWh / Average degrees F.

1, 9.26, 38
2, 7.23, 44
3, 2.88, 60
4, 5.62, 49
5, 9.17, 36
6, 10.5, 27
7, 12.9, 29
8, 12.2, 29
9, 9.23, 36
10, 8.77, 32
11, 14.2, 23
12, 14.3, 24
13, 12.9, 28
14, 9.95, 37
15, 8.58, 40
16, 10.4, 29
17, 16.9, 16
18, 14.5, 16
19, 11.5, 20
20, 11.5, 21
21, 14.2, 25.3
22, 15.2, 23.3
23, 14.8, 15.2
24, 8.17, 28.7
25, 13.8, 27.1
26, 10.5, 36.2
27, 8.35, 44.6
28, 13.8, 31.7
29, 15.3, 21.0
30, 10.5, 17.0
>>>March 2010, w/ new outdoor unit<<<
26, 8.56, 38.8
27, 13.9, 26.0
28, 9.37, 37.2
29, 7.05, 49.9
30, 8.05, 46.8
31, 7.82, 45.8
>>>April 2010, w/ new outdoor unit<<<
1, 5.00, 51.1
2, 4.45, 50.9
3, 2.45, 59.8
4, 2.89, 61.9
5, 1.14, 58.9
6, 2.72, 56.2
7, 2.67, 65.9 <<Tested AC mode when peak went to 89.3F / record breaker>>
8, 2.54, 55.0
9, 5.26, 48.0
10, 6.02, 47.3
11, 2.09, 55
12, 2.72, 48
13, 5.68, 44
14, 3.25, 49.8
15, 3.55, 47.4

Tax Day Notes:
It's been a cool first half of April. We have been turning the Sanyo off on the warmer afternoons.
It's very nice to have breakfast at 72degs when it's in the mid 30s outdoors.
These first 15 days of April (50.7kWh) cost us $10.10 (@0.20 per kWh).
After this little burst of snowy weekend weather is gone, we should see
from 1.5 to 2.5 kWh per day for the rest of April, ending the heating season. (I hope)!

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/projec....html#post5090

If you still have the broken outdoor unit, turn it into a heat pump water heater, then no more need for oil.

I need to keep the oil burner up to par, since it's my main back-up.
My Plan 'C' backup is wood, but I don't normally have a lot on hand.

I'm hoping some Solar PV assist on the boiler will provide most of our
summer hot water needs. I'm about ready to order some panels. :)

If Sanyo doesn't want the old unit back, I think it might be valuable as a source of spare parts.

What about some thermal solar panels? They would be cheaper.
Or what about buy a cheap window A/C (used is fine) and modify it into a heat pump water heater?

What is the price of a small thermal hot water system these days??


The PVHW project I'm thinking of is going to cost between $700 & $1000.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-...eat-water.html

I've been thinking about using one of my old AC units to make a hotwater heater,
and ASHPs are great for dehumidifying the basement..

But, there is a problem. Most of the time, it's cold or cool around here.
We don't get a lot of hot weather. It's mid April now and the Sanyo is
heating the house every day.

http://pics2.city-data.com/w1q/lhaq11355.png

Right now, the air temperature in the basement is about 57 degrees F.
My dehumidifier doesn't work when it's that cold.
I have use a space heater to melt the ice on it's coil.
We still have a damp floor in the basement (due to floods).


Anyways, I'm pretty sure that an ASHP for hotwater in the basement
isn't going to work very well until July or August.
In the spring and fall, I would have to use oil to heat water.

Build your own thermal solar collectors.
Welcome to The Sietch - Projects Build Your Own Solar Thermal Panel
Paint copper tubing black to make the black tubing.

Cheaper? Compared to oil?
 

The roof is Off Limits for any panels right now. (We just had it re-shingled).
And I don't want to try to pipe hot water from way out in the backyard.

Plus, I've had solar thermal hotwater before, (1980s) and it turned out
to be a PITA when the components started to corrode and leak.

I'm just about sold on PVHW, due to it's low number of moving parts and things that can go wrong.

The PV panels aren't going to generate power to replace AC power used in the house.
Their DC will be used to directly heat hot water, in place of heating that same water with oil heat..

So, I'm not comparing the kWh output of PV to what NStar is charging for power these days.

I'm comparing the PV BTUs going into the hotwater,
to the cost of heating hotwater with $3 per-gallon oil..

To fill my 275 gallon oil tank with $3 per-gallon oil, costs $825.00
If oil goes up to $5, it's going to be $1,375.00 for a fill up..

If I stay under $1,000 for my PV and loads, I think break-even would
occur pretty fast at $3 per gallon.. :eek:

Of course, it could go down.. One never knows.
http://www.treehugger.com/oil-price-graph-12423.jpg

Use the solar to power a heat pump. Compressors are cheaper than solar panels. It will give you 2-3 times the heat for the same amount of solar panels. With a closed loop inverter, you can use a 100-200w solar panel to power a refrigerator compressor (about 150w nominal, but can be less or more with an inverter) and get about 200-600w (resistive equivalent) of heat.

It's still less efficient than solar thermal, however. But if you have some way to use the cooling, it can be worth it.

Note that copper is very resistant to corrosion, especially if the working fluid contains chemicals to prevent such corrosion. (Propylene glycol solution used for solar thermal often has it.)

Using PV to directly heat the water is so simple. And will likely pay for itself in oil savings, pretty quickly.
Plus, the PV array will likely last for about 30 years with minimum upkeep.

I know all about glycol with corrosion inhibitors. That part of my old system wasn't a problem.
The fresh water side of the heat exchanger and the storage tank are where the leaks occurred. Our water eats copper.


My testing shows that about 240 watts of heat (819 BTUh) will cause
heat gain in my boiler, when set to summertime temperatures.

Having 4,000 BTU would be nice, but it could be capacity that I don't really need.
There are only two people living here.

~~~Edit 11,20,2010
I've found the reason I got heat gain with 240 watts.. I was heating the water at the top
of the tank.. Also measuring at the top of the tank.. Very misleading.

Last month, during good solar days, with about 5 hours in the 400-500 watt range,
there was no net gain. But the rate of loss slowed greatly. I think more PV is needed.
My guess is 800 to 1,000 watts of PV would work pretty well.

Update winter 2010
 

Just a quick update on Sanyo power use.

We have changed our over-night set-back temperature from 66 to 68 (19 to 20 C).
So, we are using a bit more power. With low heat gain from solar,
we seem to average about 10.5 kWh on days with an average in the low 30s.
Whereas the number was closer to 10 kWh back in 2009.

I think that's about a 5% increase in cost, which will go up at colder outdoor temps.

However,

My local mean temps aren't too cold..

---- Jan-Feb-Mar-Apr-May-Jun-Jul-Aug-Sep-Oct-Nov-Dec
Mean 25° 27° 36° 46° 56° 65° 71° 68° 61° 51° 41° 28°

Looking at a 6 month heating season, the average of the mean temps is, 34.66 degrees..
Which means on partly cloudy days, I will be using, (on-average) 10 to 11 kWh. ($2.20)
Or $66 a month. Which would be between 1/4 and 1/3 the cost of heating oil.
:D (And that doesn't include the cost of power to run the oil burner and circulating pump).

A note to new readers.
We are a retired couple and spend much of our time at home.
Otherwise, our heating cost would be somewhat lower.

Cheers,
Rich

A point of interest (to me anyways)
 

I'm getting two new 200w PV panels this week. These were a bargain that I could not pass up.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-....html#post9399
That got me thinking (again) about doing a legal Grid Tie Inverter connection.
All I would need is a couple of Enphase GTIs, Roof mount hardware etc. and a little paper work.?.

Reason:
I'm starting to think that my Sanyo uses around 440w on average, during the heating and cooling seasons.
(0.44 kWh per hour x 24 = 10.56 kWh per day).

So, those two panels could actually pay for much of our heat/AC during the prime daylight hours.
On cloudy days and at night, we would have to pay.. :rolleyes:
Unless, we were banking kWh during sunny days when the Sanyo was off.. :cool:

My point is, the Sanyo uses so little power, even a small GTI array can be very helpful.
If you live in an area where they charge more than 20 cents US per kWh,
it's an idea you might want to research..

Cheers,
Rich

Do you get paid if you overproduce electricity?

If I had a "legal Grid Tie Inverter connection", with a special 'net-metering' meter installed,
I would get Paid for energy pumped out to the grid.

Most likely, I would electronically run-the-meter-backwards, and later that night, run my tab back up.. :o

With a 400w array, it's unlikely any actual cash will ever change hands..

A small PV GTI system would probably take decades to hit break-even.
But, if you could install a 400-500w system (for around $1,000?) ,
the cost of running a mini-split (adding to your power bill) could be reduced to near zero.
With a legally installed system, you also get some tax breaks etc.

Buying the PV system for your mini-split, is kinda like paying for the power in advance.
(As in buy it now, while it's cheap).?.

The nice part of this scheme, comes if rates go up drastically.
Your energy cost for AC & heat will see less impact.
Whereas the part of the bill caused by watching a plasma TV would go up! :(

I know that compartmentalization of appliances seems odd,
and kW hours are KW hours, no matter what device is burning them..


But, many times during the year, you make a choice when setting your AC or heat.
So, if it's a nice sunny day, 'free' power can be a factor in making your choice.
You might just think.. Hey! look how sunny it is today! I'm setting this thing down to 71.6! (22C) :D

It's 10AM and it's been a pretty cool day.
Current: High: Low: Average:
29.3 °F ---29.3 °F---19.1 °F---21.9 °F

In 10 hours, the Sanyo has already used 8kWh! (Since midnight).
That's the same thing as 800w continuously. That's almost $1.70

Anyways, that seems a little high. I don't know why.
I have a few theories.

1.
Removing the carpet in the main living areas and walking on hardwood
floors over an unheated (52F) basement is costing us.
We are now heating the basement with the Sanyo.. (Just slightly).
I checked the interior walls in the basement and they are about 52F (5 feet up the walls).
But, the overhead subflooring planks are 58 to 59F.
I think most of that ceiling warming is coming from upstairs. Mr. Sanyo!


2.
Using the heat sensor in the wall-mounted unit isn't as effective
as using the remote control's heat sensor.
(when the remote is located at the core of the house).

When using the air-handler's sensor, set for 21(69.8F) , I've noticed the hall tends to hold at 22(71.6)..
So, the Sanyo is trying to hold the core at a higher temp, (24-7) and wasting some watts.


3.
Ah Ha! The power usage numbers from last year were lower than they
should have been! The new calibration is showing more accurate usage!
I'm getting so absent minded!!


The extra power usage is likely due to a combination of all of the above.. :o

My 3rd post.

My 4th post.

My 5th post.

Now I can now post a link in my next replie.

Whew, I'm worn out...:o

>

Xringer

I noticed on the first page of this thread that you said your house faces South with a yard that appears (to me) to have no trees.

You have the perfect candidate for this inexpensive solar assist heating project.

Low Profile Solar Hot Air Project 1

Instead of heating the floor above the basement with your Sanyo, you could be heating the floor from below (radiant heating)
for free...;)

Also, I would install some floor registers to let heat rise more quickly.


>

redneck,

I really like the air-heating solar panels.

Well thought out, good documentation. Great work!

-AC_Hacker

We have some plants at the prime install location, but I'm sure we could get rid of
those pretty quick.. :)

I added your link to the you tube link I posted on New years day.. ;)
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-...html#post10913

I really like Scott's super-duper collector and the fact it's portable.

I've seen hotwater collectors shaped like a big wedge, and I've been thinking
about a design of an 8'x8' wedge.
The 8'x8' face of the wedge would be on a 3' base with a 7.4' backside.
A right triangle with an acute of 22 degs on top.
Plywood with solid wood base section for some good sized casters.

Sort of like this shape.. But without all the tubes.. :)
http://www.tradett.com/images/produc...-collector.jpg

The idea would be to roll it out in the fall and then hide it out back in the summer.

I like the idea of warming the basement, but mine is COLD.. Not a bit of
insulation behind the walls of the finished part and the floor is prefect for
storing beer! I can grab a cool one off the case on the floor and it's already 50 degrees.. Just about ready to drink!!


What was thinking of is installing a hose connector rig in the window.
Just like you would install a window AC.. Two hoses and two insulated
window opening inserts.
It might be possible to use the top and bottom of a double hung window.
http://i3.milgard.com/_img/understan...ung-window.jpg
Custom cut your inserts for your windows of course..

The only drawbacks I notice are when a double hung window is open, there is a rather large gap where the top of the bottom section would normally meet the bottom of the upper section. The other is difficulty in locking the window securely when it's open.

Of course, these are just speed bumps to the progress, not road blocks. :D

The ideal comes from web pics.. I've seen some portable AC units with dual hoses going into the lower part of a window.


This is a single hose version.
http://aafeders.com/products/ac/port...ge/install.jpg

Dual hose in a sliding window.?.
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/uima...onditioner.jpg


When I install small window ACs, I slide the window down on it and then
cuts two pieces of 1/2" PVC and fit them into the window inside the top side slots.
This keeps the window from being lifted. Just need to tape the PVC tubes in place.

Didn't save much money last night.. It got COLD here..

Weather Station History : Weather Underground

We have been running hybrid mode. A little oil heat mixed in..
About 1:30 AM last night (this morning actually) I was getting ready to hit the sack,
when I saw it was getting down to 5 deg F. The Sanyo was still working pretty well.
Using about 700w and pumping out some pretty good heat..

So, as I was sitting there, it dropped off to 60w.. Idle mode.
The temp in the hall was 21 and the remote was set for 21.
So, it seemed almost normal. But normally when it this cold..?.
It hardly ever goes into idle mode. So, as I watched, it came back on
and started moving up to high power usage. Once it hit 2kw, I turned it off.
I knew it was going down to Zero, so I decided give the cranky Sanyo a night off..

Got up this morning and the oil heat had kept us warm all night.
It was 19 C, instead of the normal 21 C.. But, the circulation pumps were
off and we were just using hot-water flow-though. Convection flow..

http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/...500&showtemp=1

I wish this Sanyo wasn't so fluky.. I would really like to see what kind of heat it delivers at 0 deg F.. (If any).

Right now, it's 27 deg F outside and 72 in here. The Sanyo is using 510 watts
and pumping out some good heat..
It's only going down to 20 deg F tonight, so it might be working all night..