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Old 12-01-09, 02:30 PM   #121
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Default December 09 Heating cost, using Sanyo mini-split heat pump

Getting the average temperature here: Weather Station History : Weather Underground

December 2009:
Day of Month / kWh / Average degrees F.

1, 9.26, 38
2, 7.23, 44
3, 2.88, 60
4, 5.62, 49
5, 9.17, 36
6, 10.5, 27
7, 12.9, 29
8, 12.2, 29
9, 9.23, 36
10, 8.77, 32
11, 14.2, 23
12, 14.3, 24
13, 12.9, 28
14, 9.95, 37
15, 8.58, 40
16, 10.4, 29
17, 16.9, 16
18, 14.5, 16
19, 11.5, 20
20, 11.5, 21
21, 14.2, 25.3
22, 15.2, 23.3
23, 14.8, 15.2
24, 8.17, 28.7
25, 13.8, 27.1
26, 10.5, 36.2
27, 8.35, 44.6
28, 13.8, 31.7
29, 15.3, 21.0
30, 10.5, 17.0
>>>March 2010, w/ new outdoor unit<<<
26, 8.56, 38.8
27, 13.9, 26.0
28, 9.37, 37.2
29, 7.05, 49.9
30, 8.05, 46.8
31, 7.82, 45.8
>>>April 2010, w/ new outdoor unit<<<
1, 5.00, 51.1
2, 4.45, 50.9
3, 2.45, 59.8
4, 2.89, 61.9
5, 1.14, 58.9
6, 2.72, 56.2
7, 2.67, 65.9
8, 2.54, 55.0
9, 5.26, 48.0
10, 6.02, 47.3
11, 2.09, 55
12, 2.72, 48
13, 5.68, 44
14, 3.25, 49.8
15, 3.55, 47.4
16, 10.3, 40.0 rain
17, 10.0, 39.8 rain
18, 7.59, 43.5
19, 5.26, 47.4
20, 3.58, 53.4
21, 2.35, 56.4
22, 2.57, 56.3
23, 4.07, 51.2
24, 3.31, 53.3
25, 2.26, 56.0
26, 3.85, 51.1
27, 5.71, 45.2
28, 9.23, 39.0
29, 6.01, 48.2
30, 2.12, 56.6

Averaging about 74 cents a day for April.


Tax Day Notes:
It's been a cool first half of April. We have been turning the Sanyo off on the warmer afternoons.
It's very nice to have breakfast at 72degs when it's in the mid 30s outdoors.
These first 15 days of April (50.7kWh) cost us $10.10 (@0.20 per kWh).
After this little burst of snowy weekend weather is gone, we should see
from 1.5 to 2.5 kWh per day for the rest of April, ending the heating season. (I hope)!






March 30, 2010 note:
On rainy or cloudy days, the power usage will be higher than normal, since there is no solar gain from the south facing windows.


Dec 5 Notes:
The defrost mode works fine. See pics above.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/projec....html#post5052

Breaking Even?
If it was super cold and the Sanyo running at it's full 2.5 kw for 24 hours, that's 60 kWh ($12).
That would be the same price as buying 4 gallons of $3 a gal heating oil..
(The burner uses 1 GPH when on. During Jan-Feb ave use is 3 to 4 gal-per-day. More on the really cold days ).

If I use 60 kWh as my break-even limit, using 20 to 30 kWh a day isn't so bad.
Not bad at all!

Dec 10 notes: Total house power use.
Checked the Nstar meter today. We used 429 kWh in the last 19 days. That's 22.58 kWh per day.
This time last year, we were using 27.7 kWh per day.
I guess those old space heaters that we were using with the oil heat, weren't too green..

Dec 17: COLD!
It got down to 14F this morning and the Sanyo works great!
Last night, the setback was 68 degs F. Clicked it back up, starting at 6:30 AM.

It's now 10:30 AM and the average temperature since midnight has been 18.5 degrees.
Since midnight, have used 8.08 kWh or $1.62 (instead of a few gallons of oil).

It's going to stay about this cold for the next 24 hours, so we might use
15 to 20 kWh today. But the Solar gain will cut that down some.

Right now, we are at a warm 72 degs, using 730 watts. (when not coasting).
Today is going to be a good test of the Sanyo's ability to deliver heat
at a high rate at a higher duty cycle. So far, it's looking good.

Dec 18: Midnight Hybrid mode
The last 24 hours average temp was 16 degs. Used 19.9 kWh ($3.38),
and now that it's 7 degrees and dropping(?), I have turned on the hotwater heat
flow-thru valve to insure that no baseboard pipes freeze up in the closed rooms.

07:00 AM, 6.0 Degrees F.
Hybrid mode worked pretty well. Used 5.2 kWh during the night
and kept the house at a constant 68 all night.
The air coming out of the Sanyo, 'felt' like about 12,000 BTU, using about 1kW,
which I think is pretty good considering the temperature outside.


Dec 23 notes about cost of fuel & power:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/conser....html#post5310




As far as it's suitability for use in our new England climate,
I think we can declare this part of the experiment a success.


Last edited by Xringer; 05-01-10 at 08:06 AM.. Reason: Recording weather history
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Old 12-07-09, 11:23 PM   #122
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Default Measuring Refrigerant Pressure in Sanyo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
Hey AC Hacker,
If you needed to measure the R410A pressure in your Sanyo, what would be the procedure?
And how would the cooling and heating modes effect the pressure readings at the service port?
Well Xringer, you're out of my league already.

I haven't tested the pressure on my unit yet... no need to it's working just fine.

But You might google the question and see what you come up with.

However, there should be a sticker on your unit that states what the working pressure is. It probably says something like Lo = 280 Hi = 425, that's is just a guess, it's about 20 degrees outside, and right now I'm inside, pretty cozy.

If the unit is not running, the pressure would eventually equalize. You'll want to measure the pressure when the unit is operating normally, not when it's doing a defrost cycle. When you start the unit up, the pressures change and will stabilize after about 10 to 20 minutes.

At this time, I'm not even sure where the service valves are. I looked for diagrams in the Service PDF, but didn't see anything.

I think that if you just measured the High side, it would tell you what you need to know.

When you remove the manifold hose, you'll lose a very small bit of refrigerant, not to worry, but do wear gloves & eye protection.

Are you having serious problems? Mine's working just dandy... this morning it was around 18 degrees here. My unit is working a bit harder, but I'd expect that.

Frost forming on the evaporator is normal, and so is the defrost cycle.

-AC_Hacker
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Old 12-08-09, 12:39 AM   #123
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It's not a real serious problem. It is working fine, until I try to increase
the temperature in a large increment. Like calling for 74, from 66.
It's going to be 66 in the morning, so we have to set it to 68, wait for
it to get there, then set it to 70, wait and so on.

When a large change is requested, the power usage exceeds the normal max of 2.5 KW,
as the compressor & fans run at highest speeds and start delivering a massive heat output.
When the power usage hits 3 KW, my power monitor alarm goes off
and I have to push the down (temperature) button to slow it down.
Otherwise, the overload is sensed by the outdoor unit and it resets itself (at about 3.5 kw).

I'm not sure, but I think the OLR 'overload relay' drops out the main 'power relay' for just a second and the power input blinks,
like it was a power line glitch. It just starts right back up and if the living area isn't close to the target temperature, it starts power hogging again..
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...CL/outdoor.jpg

I get the feeling the controller board thinks it's installed in a 3 ton, instead of a 2 ton unit..

Anyways, Sanyo tech support thinks it might be "a problem with the charge in your system"
and wants some off and running pressure readings.


The wide tube is where the charge/service port is, And since the flow switches direction when heating vs cooling,
I'm wondering if measuring in both AC and heating modes will be like measuring the High and low sides?? (on the single charge port).

Maybe:
1. System off, wide tube valve off, hook up gauge, open valve and measure cold pressure.
2. Run Heat for 20 minutes and measure while still running.
3. Run Cool for 20 minutes and measure while still running.
4. Sanyo Off, valve off, unhook gauge & cap & valve back to open again.
5. Record exact outdoor & indoor temperatures.

I've found the pressure performance charts in the service manual, so I'll know what pressures to expect.
http://sanyohvac.com/assets/document...SeriesRevB.pdf

YES! pages 21 & 22. Cooling about 117 PSI and heating around 400 PSI, depending on the inside and outside air temperature.
There's the old High and Low side.. Right??

Edit: That label just tells the Design Pressure.. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/F106.jpg

Last edited by Xringer; 12-08-09 at 12:44 AM.. Reason: label
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Old 12-08-09, 11:28 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
YES! pages 21 & 22. Cooling about 117 PSI and heating around 400 PSI, depending on the inside and outside air temperature.
There's the old High and Low side.. Right??
Well, it sounds right... In the diagram at the top, there is a legend for Wide Tube Service Valve and Narrow Tube Service Valve. I guess they're avoiding High Side & Low Side because it depends on the direction of flow.

So yes, your scheme sounds reasonable. Probably should use the gauge with the highest range.

Make sure the needle valve on the manifold is closed.

Have you asked your Sanyo support tech for the proper proceedure?

-AC_Hacker
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Old 12-14-09, 03:06 PM   #125
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Pressure testing Dec 14, 2009.
Pressure measured at Wide Tube Service valve.

Outdoor temp 43 degs F, Indoor temp 68 to 70 degs F.

System off for 25 minutes, pressure = 140 PSI
Heating & using 1.5 kW, pressure = 375 PSI
Heating & using 2.0 kW, pressure = 450 PSI
Heating & using 2.15 kW, pressure = 460 PSI

Cooling & using 0.480 kW, pressure = 110 PSI
Cooling & using 0.90 kW, pressure = 105 PSI

These look normal to me. I'm using the service manual as a guide.
http://sanyohvac.com/assets/document...SeriesRevB.pdf
See pages 21 & 22.

Edit:
Also changed the dual 20A circuit breaker to a dual 15A breaker. Just in case.

Last edited by Xringer; 12-15-09 at 08:12 PM..
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Old 01-07-10, 05:29 PM   #126
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Default R-410A leaked

The pressure during cooling was a little too low. Should have been between 115 and 125 PSI.
The Sanyo kept working okay during the Xmas holidays,
but may have been using a little too much power as the days got colder and colder.

On the very cold night of Dec 29, it stopped heating. The fans were working,
everything seemed normal, but there was no warm R-410A flowing in the copper.

This week, under the guidance of Sanyo tech support, I tested the unit and found the R-410A had escaped.



There are tracks where lube ran across the top of the insulating disc on top of the compressor.

This copper tube is a thermistor mount, located just above the compressor. It is brazed on the right side.
There is fresh lube on the nylon cable tie and the steel sensor clip.


Using nitrogen at 300 PSI, I was able to locate the general location of the leak in a copper tube.

I held a plastic tube to one ear and moved the other end of the plastic tube
around, inside near the tubing, until I heard a loud hiss coming from thermistor tube.
I was able to hold the sound-tube near the telephone mic, so the Sanyo tech could hear it too.

The overall quality of the materials and workmanship is impressive.
My guess is, the brazing on the right side of the sensor tube,
hit a copper tube defect, or got so hot, it melted a tiny void in the copper.?.
I was not able to 'see' the actual hole, I suspect that it's very very small.


After about an hour, the pressure didn't seem to be dropping at all.
It was still almost 300 PSI. I had to slowly bleed the nitrogen down.

Sanyo has started the paperwork to get a replacement unit shipped,
but I have idea when that will happen. This model is often out-of-stock.

Now, I'm wondering about how to clean out the line-set & indoor unit coil,
before installing the replacement outdoor unit..
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Old 01-07-10, 10:28 PM   #127
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Quote:
Now, I'm wondering about how to clean out the line-set & indoor unit coil,
before installing the replacement outdoor unit..
Just pull a vacuum like you did for the first time.
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Old 01-08-10, 02:17 AM   #128
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Default Sorry about your leak...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
Now, I'm wondering about how to clean out the line-set & indoor unit coil, before installing the replacement outdoor unit..
Ditto what NiHaoMike said... Your indoor unit will have a bit of lube film inside, but all your lines are dresses downhill, and excess lube will have drained ok. When your new unit is all set up, just pull a good vacuum (and now that you have a good vacuum gauge, you'll be able to know that you've got a good vacuum), and hold it 'til the moisture is out. As I recall, you have a dandy chart that indicates the required time at some particular temperature. You won't be opening the lines to the old unit until your new unit arrives, so moisture should be minimal.

Sorry about your leak. My unit is still humming right along.

Yeah, good looking build quality. Good photo.

Regards,

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Old 01-08-10, 12:25 PM   #129
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IIRC, that chart indicates a very long vacuum cycle if it's pretty cold.. Like it's going to be for a good while..

I do have a rather large loop in the bottom of the of the line-set. (right behind the unit).
Plus, I know there are a lot of little loops inside the indoor-unit.



Those two low parts of the loops could be holding a lot of POE lube..

Maybe I could hook up like I was going to nitrogen pressure test and
then crack the nut on the small line to bleed out the nitrogen and any oil that might be pushed along..

I've found a lot of info about converting from R22 to R410A,
Flushing Techniques For R-22 to R-410A Conversions
but nothing much about just cleaning out an R410A line set..
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Old 01-10-10, 12:02 PM   #130
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Default Calculating Stranded Oil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
Those two low parts of the loops could be holding a lot of POE lube..

Maybe I could hook up like I was going to nitrogen pressure test and
then crack the nut on the small line to bleed out the nitrogen and any oil that might be pushed along..
You may be obsessing a bit, but the above idea sounds reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
I've found a lot of info about converting from R22 to R410A,
Flushing Techniques For R-22 to R-410A Conversions
but nothing much about just cleaning out an R410A line set..
I think flushing proceedures are not needed. The mineral oil used for R22 and the POE oil used for R410a are not compatible, so flushing is required. If you had a unit with an appreciable amount of oil and it was open to air for a long time like weeks, months, years, it could absorb enough moisture to be a problem, and then flushing would be a solution. In your case, not such a big deal.

If you really want to get down on this issue, you could find out what the inside diameter of your tubing is and calculate the volume of the tube by estimating the length of the tube that would be likely to be holding oil, and then find out how much POE oil is a full charge for your comprressor, then divide the volume of oil stranded in the tube by the volume of a full charge of oil to see what percentage over your worst case might be. If it's something small like in the <5% range, don't worry, if it's big like 25%,or more, it's likely too much.

Volume of stranded oil = ((Pi) x (ID)(ID))/4 x (length of tube)

So yeah, if it was required, when you unhook your line-set from the old unit, you could use nitrogen to blow out the line-set and any oil that might be in the inside unit. But I think flushing would not be needed.

Regards,

-AC_Hacker


Last edited by AC_Hacker; 01-10-10 at 12:08 PM..
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