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Old 03-05-17, 01:00 PM   #21
jeff5may
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Oooh, I don't like those pumps. For short-term or temporary rigs, they do a pretty good job once they are primed. They do a good job to drain a pond or extract river water, and even then, everything on the suction side of the pump has to be sturdy and super leak-free. They can pump a whole lot of volume for their size and power draw.

For anything permanent, they HAVE TO be indoors and protected from freezing. By indoors, I mean in a covered pit below frost line or in a wellhouse with some sort of "never freeze" inside. From experience, I can tell you they like to bust like a brazed plate heat exchanger. Even if the pump doesn't develop a leak on the outside, the impeller assembly develops stress cracks and the clock is ticking until it tears itself apart under load. If left to its own means, the bearings will lock up and then goes the motor.

Also, the stuff in the bottom of the borehole likes to fail whenever it wants to. Usually this happens in the middle of winter when there is at least a foot of frozen stuff on the ground. Regardless of where your ejector/nozzle/venturi is located (top/middle/bottom of borehole), it likes to clog up and the pump won't prime. The foot valve at the bottom of the hole likes to lose its seal and the pump won't prime. To make the well pump water, the guts have to come out of the hole, usually through the roof of the well house. While you are troubleshooting the priming system, the pump tries to freeze up. The whole process becomes an exercise in Murphy's law.

My dad seems to have a love affair with these pumps. I know he has at least 4 or 5 of them in the barn that have failed. He still uses them to pump ponds and pits with, and now has a good supply of spare parts for when a project comes to a halt. Kind of like the "Gold Rush" prospectors on that channel.

I would much rather run an extension cord and some sort of submersible pump. Yes, they cost a little more. No, they don't pump as much water per watt, and they clog up a little easier, but guess what? Once the thing is underwater, it just works like it should until it doesn't. One less thing to worry about.

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Old 03-05-17, 06:16 PM   #22
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A submersible won't fit in 1.5" PVC... We'll just have to see how it goes. The pump is a Myers, so it isn't crap. Hopefully it'll get the job done.

There is no foot valve, but there will be a check valve up top.

I was using the 2" trash pump to draw some water out today as I was pouring in 8 bags of 94lb Portland cement... The thought was, if there WAS any sort of air/water leak (as before), then cement would be drawn into it. The pump is supposed to have a 25' lift, but there wasn't much water coming out at all. I'm hoping that drastically improves when I install the Myers, or this has been one hell of a waste of time and money.

It hit me today, that I may very well have been better off getting a REAL well drilled, then using that for our "regular" water, and eliminating the county bill. It'd pay for itself in something like 5 or 6 years, and would have saved a lot of headache.
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Old 03-15-17, 11:08 PM   #23
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Any updates Slippy? Pictures?
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Old 03-16-17, 10:09 AM   #24
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There are a lot of pictures on page 2 of this thread.

The update is, I was out of town for a week, then installed the Myers pump. I plumbed it all up, with ball valves for priming above and below the check valve. The ejector that I am using is probably not the best tool for the job, but may suffice. The pump is resting on a support platform, about 3' higher than it HAS to be. Unfortunately, it took a tumble, and the starter winding switch (a centrifugal switch) broke; I had the rear cover off to switch the voltage between 120V for testing, and 230V for final install. One is on order, but I can "jimmy" it to make it work for now.

Here's the current lay of the land: The pump will pump about 2.5 gallons per minute (average) of "chocolate milk" for about six minutes, starting fast, tapering off. Then, it stops sucking at all. Once it has stopped pumping and I turn it off, if I open a ball valve, I can hear the WHOOSH as the water descends back down the column. So, there is certainly SOME water there that I am just not slurping up. The well screen is between about 18 feet down, to about 40 feet down. (I made a BIG one to help maximize flow/refresh).

My water table begins at about a 20 foot depth, as I recall (I measured it numerous times, but my memory is foggy, though I THINK it was 20 feet.) So, there certainly isn't very much of a static head, if I can only suck at a maximum depth of 25 feet. At this point, I really don't know what to do or to try.

I think things can be helped to some degree (how much?) by continuing to try to pump water. Again, I'm seeing chocolate milk coming out; there is a very, very fine silty clay in the water. But, it is hard to do, as I have to keep putting water down the hole, repriming, and all that; perhaps restricting the flow would help me to be able to run for longer periods, but it seems when I tried that, the pump was struggling to pump at all, as if the back pressure was too much for the pump to do its job at all.

I have thought about getting a $99 shallow well pump from Harbor Freight, since it ought to be better configured than my Myers with the aftermarket ejector I put on it; the ejector is supposed to be down in the well, at a depth of 25 to 75 feet, I think. I should be able to draw from deeper down. I can also lower the pump about 3 feet to get to a little more water, but will that little bit make much of a difference?

I really am afraid that I am just wasting my time, spinning my wheels. It has gotten frustrating, and it has gotten COLD outside!

Now, for a WSHP for my installation, I'd need about a 5 ton unit, which would require about 10 to 15 GPM. I am not even able to sustain 2 GPM now. It seems highly unlikely that I could make improvements of that magnitude. I am absolutely open to any ideas from anyone!

A thought is that perhaps I could drill (or HAVE drilled) another well, with a large enough diameter to install a submersible pump, then use "my problem child" well as a return well.

I also don't know what the duty cycle of the HVAC averages; perhaps storing 2 GPM (if I can get that) will allow me to deliver a higher rate than that to the WSHP. I don't particularly like the idea of having to add lots of water storage tanks inside the building, but, well, it is a thought.

ANY input is welcomed!!!
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Old 03-16-17, 10:28 AM   #25
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I somehow missed the photos. Great progress and some problems along the way but you are getting it done!

Question about your statement: "Doing it all over, I'd have kept driving the 4" sewer pipe deeper and deeper into the ground; we started with a 2' stub, but the hole enlarged more than that immediately below it. The deeper this temporary casing goes, the more protected everything is from collapse, AND the easier the cuttings can bubble up. I think that a large cavern was created somewhere down in the hole, which contributed to my failed sealing attempt."

Would you the just keep pushing the casing down as you are drilling, 10' at a time? Seems like that would really help until you get to the aquifer. Or maybe when you get to that level you have holes in the casing for that?

In my area, there is so much rock that the last time I drilled, there wasn't a straight shot for the casing to go down. You could look down the hole and see a large rock sticking out then a few feet more, another one sticking out the other way.....
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Old 03-16-17, 02:08 PM   #26
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Well, to do it ALL over, hiring a contractor may have been the way to go. But, on the 4' casing thing, my thought during posting that is that it would be removed; it would serve as a drilling aid, yes, adding to it as we descended, then pull it after the drill pipe was removed and the well pipe installed, maybe even the gravel. But, now, perhaps the 4" pipe itself should have been the goal, at some point withdrawing it, replacing some parts of it with a well screen.

But, here I sit, with what I have got, not sure how to proceed.
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Old 03-17-17, 09:45 AM   #27
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OK, so what you are describing sounds like an airlock situation. Also known as short cycling. Assuming you don't have a leak on the suction side somewhere, there are only a few things that could be happening to cause what you describe. Some testing is needed to figure out what is going on in your rig before a remedy can be devised.

Since you didn't install a foot valve, any time the pump loses suction for any reason, guess what happens? You lose some prime. FWIW, this happens every time the pump shuts off. If you have a check valve up high (somewhere above water table) and your well draws down enough to suck air, the pump up top has an easy time sucking air from the bottom of the bore (for however long) until enough air passes through to the top.

Once the pump cavitates, the check valve closes, and all the air ingested downstream rises towards the pump. The water in the pump falls to wherever the check valve is. If it doesn't happen naturally, the ejector drains the pump body trying to keep the flow going. Below the check valve, air backs up on top, and supply water falls back into the bore. If the ejector produces sufficient suction to open the check valve, the air comes through first and stalls the pump again. If the water table hasn't recovered, more air is ingested.

With a foot valve installed, any time the flow stops, this (short) cycle is interrupted. Think of a coffee maker, it uses the column of steam created in the heating element as an ejector. The buoyant steam carries water with it as it rises to the top, while the expansion down low provides the driving pressure.

So with what you have, the best thing you can do now is limit your discharge volume. Stick a pressure gage on the discharge line to get an idea of what your well bore is doing. Start the pump and prime the rig with the discharge valve barely cracked open. This will allow lots of air to burp and not a lot of water flow. If the rig burps constantly, either the ejector is not deep enough or the well has too low capacity. Again, this assumes an airtight suction column. Eventually the suction side will burp completely, and a certain amount of discharge pressure will develop.

At low volume and high pressure, allow the sludge/sand/mud to be cleared from the well bore. Once the discharge water runs clear, open your valve slightly to increase flow. Again allow the bore to clear while keeping an eye on your discharge pressure. If the gage pressure drops, this indicates a problem of some sort. There may be something in the bottom of the well trying to clog the pipe, or it could be air entering. In rare cases, the well water is "carbonated" with (maybe or maybe not) CO2. The pump will let you know by the sound it makes. Close the discharge valve slightly to get the rig pumping at a steady state.

If this steady state cannot be reached, the ejector head probably needs to be lowered in the borehole. If you reach steady-state flow as-is, then you have to test for reprime ability after the pump is shut off (for a long time). If the pump cannot regain prime upon restart, well that's a whole new problem...

Haven't seen any pictures of the rig the way it sits now, but having been through the same type of ordeal many times, I can tell you a foot valve is a lifesaver in a two-pipe rig. With a single-pipe (AKA shallow well) rig, it is simply not an option unless the pump runs continuously forever. With the right combination of discharge pressure and ejector placement, you can do without a foot valve.
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Old 03-22-17, 12:47 PM   #28
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My open loop system return is about 50 ft away from inlet well, both are about 80 ft deep
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Old 03-22-17, 04:27 PM   #29
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@simenad:
Have you measured temperature changes over time?
What is your tonnage and flow rate?
What kind of pump(s) are you using?
Does the injection well have any problem taking the water?
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Old 03-22-17, 04:47 PM   #30
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@jeff5may:

I haven't had the time to give your suggestions a try yet, but may tomorrow. I have a check valve just below the ejector, which is offset from the pump about a foot. I can't recall if I posted a picture, but the setup is:
1/2HP Goulds pump, 1 foot of horizontal pipes to the ejector, 90° elbow, check valve, tee to a valve for priming, 18 feet 1-1/2" PVC, 22 feet of 1-1/2" well screen, cap.
Standing water is about 22 feet below the ejector, with the pump not running. Pump will run at 2.5 GPM avg. for 5 minutes before getting airlocked (I'm assuming I am drawing the water out of the pipe to the point where the pump just can't lift, which I believe is about a 25' maximum for ANY kind of pump).

I can lower the pump about 2 feet. That'll give me some more water, but I really doubt if it will give me enough to sustain 2.5GPM; maybe I could run for 7 to 10 minutes, but I'm doubting if I could go much longer.

Man, I wish that I seen somewhere on all the "drill your own well" sites that it is utterly pointless to drill more than 30 feet, unless you are going with a 4" casing, which would allow an ejector (or narrow submersible) to go down in it. I really hate to say it, but I think I am just screwed. MAYBE I could do something like install a massive storage tank, drawing out as much water as I can overnight, to then be used during the day (the only time I need to worry about HVAC; this is at a business.)

I really don't want to have to hire a contractor to drill a "real" well, but I may just have to, and abandon this project altogether. I guess it could be used as an injection well, but I don't know if it will accept water fast enough. I know it won't take more than about 3 GPM by gravity alone, as I am able to prime it at near that flow rate with a garden hose.

The only other thing I think might be able to work would be to use an air lift pump, which essentially bubbles air at the bottom of the well, up into a pipe, carrying some water with it. But, that comes with its own set of problems, such as separating the water from the air. I assume I'd need to air lift up into a tank, then use a transfer pump to move that water through my heat exchanger.

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